The Reality of BLM Violent Protesters

How are people getting this far off kilter?

At least he is in jail now.  17-year-olds are impressionable and with all the hate, propaganda, and misinformation out there, its sadly not surprising.  Some people commenting on Fox News website were praising him as some sort of "hero."   Wonder what the "adults" in his group were doing when the kid initially started shooting?

Haven't heard much about the victims other than what was shown on the videos last night.  Sad day for America. 

More of this to come when Trump loses in November. Predicting armed standoffs by the large white trash contingent in our country.  The genie is already out of the bottle in respect to open carrying assault rifles in the street. 

those tactial nutbags are so homo erotic.

Sad day for America<<<

I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner.

But yes, it is sad; to say the least.

Matchsticks and water cannons, tear gas, padlocks, Molotov cocktails and rocks behind every curtain.

> The genie is already out of the bottle in respect to open carrying assault rifles in the street. 

Agreed, JR. This kind of thing is getting normalized, and worse than that, we're getting used to it.

Proud Boys pulled guns at the big brawl downtown on Saturday:

Note that that this is a cheap throw away piece.   Of course, cops didn't do jack shit.  These are dangerous people being encouraged by the racist pigs and inflammatory right wing media. 

This shit is so scary.  

This kid Kyle Rittenhouse will likely never draw a free breath as an adult of majority.

and he probably shouldn't.

But just think - another two years and he would've been able to use qualified immunity as a defense...

Our nazi prez set this whole scenario up for photo ops for Nov.

The agitators are t- rumps goons in training, sent in to cause as much mayhem as goons in training can ,,,

before his certified fulltime goon squads arrive to restore order.

And stump comes out lookin like Wyatt Earp.

You'd think the peaceful protesters would've figured this out by now and changes strategies. Stuuuuuuuuupid fuckin assholes, it's like they want to reelect the shitbird.

Guy in above photo looks Russian.

Yeah this probably should have gone in the Portland thread, sorry.  

Portland protestors - fucking dipsticks

This kid Kyle Rittenhouse will likely never draw a free breath as an adult of majority<<<

Unless perhaps someone put him up to it and he cuts a deal.

I have no idea, but wouldn't be surprised.

>>>Our nazi prez set this whole scenario up for photo ops for Nov.

The agitators are t- rumps goons in training, sent in to cause as much mayhem as goons in training can ,,,

before his certified fulltime goon squads arrive to restore order.<<<

Any fuckin questions?

so a bunch of armed black dudes should be able to attend protests in full jag-off gear as well, no?

i know not many nba fans here, but last night's "inside the nba " got pretty real...

interesting to hear atheletes start to call for not playing. forfeiting salary or whatever...shut down the economics of sports...

Fucking mall ninjas will be the death of us.

https://twitter.com/BGOnTheScene/status/1298502384654651392?fbclid=IwAR2...

Many want to end up on the right side of history, but few take the time to study it.

^Elaborate!

Kenosha Police Chief Miskinis just said in a news conference that had people not been violating the curfew, none of this might have happened.  

Kenosha Police Chief Miskinis just said in a news conference that had people not been violating the curfew, none of this might have happened<<<

Mind blowing.

Violation of curfew = death?

Anthony Huber, 25-years-old, was one of the two people murdered last night as he was chasing down the gunman who had just shot another person in the head.

RIP

>The Bucks are boycotting game 6<

good!

now the packers and brewers should shut it down.

The N.B.A. postponed multiple playoff games on Wednesday after the Milwaukee Bucks boycotted their matchup with the Orlando Magic in protest of the police shooting of Jacob Blake, a Black man in Wisconsin.

The postponement affects first-round games between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Portland Trail Blazers, and between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Houston Rockets. The games, including that of the Bucks and Magic, will be rescheduled.

Should be >>> Ex-Kenosha Police Chief Miskinis <<<

And the Bucks are strong and doing the right thing.

65 people died in 4 days during 1992 King riots in LA.  
Korean militias were armed to the teeth.
unfortunately this happens during riots.

hopefully this little fucker gets life, and his parents should be charged also.

Much more serious than the privileged pricks in Portland with their silly string and pepper spray.

People still watch NBA?  

Who want's to go to Indonesia with me?

NBA kudos to you

Huge NBA fan

Big NBA fan here. I'll go out on a limb and say Adam Silver and his league are the most progressive in the history of sports, et al. Bravo to Lebron and that brotherhood he's always talking about. 

Kudos NBA,  RIP victims of right wing crime   

Suspected murderer is a rail rat for Donald Trump which should surprise exactly NO ONE

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/kenosha-suspect-kyle-rit...

>Who want's to go to Indonesia with me?<

uh, i was gonna...and want to...friend has been living there for the last year...it's been locked down until next year though. he's stoked.

All part of the repugnant national convention plans

and playing into trumps hands

I honestly think let the PIGS (what we called the police back in the days of protests late 60s and 70s) killed that innocent man on purpose 

 certainly plays into the dick Tators tiny hands

lord help us all

this darkness got to end

pray for peace and evolution, Love and social maturity ...

NBA kudos to you

Huge NBA fan

Def kudos for this- no doubt.  The NBA bows to China pretty hard though.  So much money at stake.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/kenosha-suspect-kyle-rit...

It's pretty fucked up that kids in America are being radicalized by the far right, to the point that they are killing people with different views.   What the hell has happened to us?

Willy Horton

Didn't realize Lou Holtz had caught the sickness, too. How do this happen to people? 

https://twitter.com/anonopsse/status/1298627537980010504?s=21

the issues of criminal justice reform, systemic racism, police brutality and police racism are as pressing and real as they have ever been, and swift drastic action is required, such as diverting police resources to social programs, demilitarizing, decriminalizing drugs, requiring civilian review boards for all departments, etc etc etc...

but at this point are these protests the best way to realize those goals? aside from the initial post-george floyd explosion of awareness, it seems like most of what i am seeing is opposing sides digging in and accusing the other side of not only being wrong, but of trying to destroy america, whether it be thru fascism, racism, socialism, anarchy, etc...each side seems to increasingly disregard or dismiss any wrongdoing or violence perpetrated by their movement, or by misguided folks claiming to be a part of their movement.

im not seeing a whole lot of significant progress on the major issues. a handful of cities seem to be heading towards significant police reform, but mostly fairly liberal cities that could have likely been convinced of police reform by the initial post george floyd explosion and public outcry.

whether people want to admit this to themselves or not, a large portion of the country, and the vast majority of the country's landmass, voted for trump and identifies as conservative, and to make significant change on a national level, we are going to have to appeal in some way to those people and the conservative state/local governments they voted for. some of those people will have to be convinced of our position, or at the very least convinced to take our position seriously, without all the accusations of marxists/leftists trying to destroy america and the family or whatever wild shit is floating thru the jones-carlson-OAN closed loop human centipede of journalistic feces.

in the first week or so directly following the floyd murder i actually had some hope - for the first time that i was aware of, conservatives were openly, clearly admitting that the floyd murder was wrong and a miscarriage of justice. there were probably some that were not, but by and large everyone was in agreement of at least that one simple thing - what we saw in that video was wrong, and it was not how we want justice carried out.

seems like every week that goes by, conservatives stray farther and farther from that initial revelation i was so hopeful about, and regardless of what percentage of protesters are peaceful and what percentage are rioters, and regardless of whether or not rioting or violence coming from self proclaimed BLM supporters is connected to, or representative of the movement as a whole(its obviously not), seeing the constant clashes with police in portland, small businesses in WI being burnt to the ground, an old man trying to defend his small business getting beaten, among other grim scenes, is only dividing people further and will not under any circumstances contribute to the understanding and compromise the majority of americans need to come to between people who are conservative/liberal, pro trump/anti trump, pro police/anti police etc if we want to see any significant criminal justice/police reform on a statewide or national level.

i wonder if its time to pack it in and reevaluate the strategy here, not as a way of placating conservatives or surrendering, but as a way to save a movement and ideas that are in great jeopardy, and that are necessary in the struggle for equality and dignity for all americans.   

not trying to criticize the main criminal justice reform related goals of the BLM movement, not trying to say the rioting is in any way comparable to murder, whether it be the murder of george floyd or the murders commited by this teenager, just starting to doubt if these tactics are the path to producing real change, rather than just to act as a cathartic outlet for political rage.

you can bet this asshole is his hero....

Ben - that is the Way

very good post daylight - I do agree, thank you

moving the needle will take time and compassion  - may be better after the politics calm down some

( I am right - therefore you are wrong)  left hates the right - right hates left, "far left" hates "the center" etc

(~ far right hates the world??)

I may be crazy but still not crazy enough to try and run down a guy with an AR15 on foot, unarmed. 

^^ May be crazy?   Lol

and that is all you have to represent your views?

you are in no way a BenWay

completely whack a doodle doo works as your handle

I may be crazy but still not crazy enough to try and run down a guy with an AR15 on foot, unarmed. <<<

Guy in the white shirt who punched the shooter in the back of the head while running seemed a bit "half-committed"; as if he wanted to get his (figurative) "kick" in, yet didn't want to go full hog to tackle / nuetralize the shooter.  Not looking to play Monday morning QB or say that I could've done any better or even would've tried anything in the first place; let alone, the distinct possibility that it may have turned out worse.  It's disturbing all the way around and sad doesn't even begin to describe it.

Systemic change will not come by way of the system, daylight. It just won't. It can't.

It is also not possible to compromise with people who literally reject that actual things like race/class privilege and structural racism (the things people are literally burning police stations and down over) even exist at all in the first place. Voting for a new person to blame it all on every couple years? Well....

Systemic blather - bla - bla knee jerk etc.  The stupid white kid (17) shot some other stupid  white kids (older) according to the story.  If you believe the story anyway.  Could all be more bad theater to rile people up.  Nothing new there. No law saying media have to tell the truth.

The rioters (out-of-towners for the most part) burned a furniture store,  Mexican restaurant,  and used car dealership in a mainly black part of Kenosha.  Way to stick it to the Man !! (( I'm being sarcastic.  Local blacks don't benefit from trashing their neighborhood. ))

Actual local black people were on record that they didn't start the shit,  and agitators from outside were responsible for the destruction.

Stupid White Kid, Stu?!  

plenty of stupid white kids don't travel with their right wing militia Mommy and assault weapons   to go hunting  peaceful protesters. 
 

Wonder what incel message board disco stu frequents? once again the guy exhibits his mostly quiet racism but always loud ignorance. 

[Insert joke about the "stupid white kid whisperer" here]

Yeah, that was a troubling post to read. In Stu's eye, it seems, a 17 year old blasting a couple of people's heads and arm off with an automatic weapon is being a stupid teen, like dropping a cherry bomb down the toilet at school.

Im starting to feel like he's got a Ted Kaczynsky thing going out there in the wilds of New Jersey.

^ wouldn't be surprised.

No, actually,

To clarify -- stupid kids showing up to riots with loaded weapons is Stupid.  If you go there, to the active riot, you are stupid as well.

I am non-violent and avoid congregations of Idiots. 

Call me a bigot -- actually I don't care what color you are,  but if you are violent, stupid and approve of destruction then you're just a Bumblefuck.  Go read your Chairman Mao little book and burn down your own Lawn decorations.

Explain why it's so fucking Great to destroy the Mexican restaurant and Dry-Cleaning shop.

Those business owners worked hard to feed their families,  then hordes of assholes ruined it all.  No normal person approves of their destruction or supports ??? what's the crusade ???

Just another Cointelpro operation to discredit peaceful protest,  and Silver-Spoon Marxists eat it up.

As a self-professed nonviolent person, do you care that police brutality is an epidemic in the country you live in? 

Or do you really just care about other people's insured material properties?

Do you understand that murdering people (violence) is not the same as murdering buildings and things (property destruction)? That they do not equate?

Do you understand who it is doing the murdering?

Do black lives matter?

Stu, buddy, a  radicalized 17 year old crossed state lines with an automatic weapon, and then killed 2 and maimed another. That was his  purpose for being there. That's beyond stupid. It's criminal.

Meanwhile, a whole bunch of people are sick and tired of being targeted by cops, imprisoned, killed, and beaten, simply because of their skin color. They are pissed in a way you nor I can ever understand, and are reacting in ways that reflect an anger and pain that we can't understand.

If seems that you are saying that those who were murdered deserved it. They were being stupid, so they got stupidity in return.

Go play with your dog or something.

I think it's more shapely logs (in lawn chairs with lipstick) than bomb making. Maybe some really old Playboy and Penthouse mags under the Beta Max machine.

The guy shoots and kills people, and his defense will be self defense.

If the guy with the skateboard had a gun instead, and this guy's walking down the street with his AK, sweeps it around the crowd. Skateboard guy could shoot him feeling "threatened". This scenario is going to turn into an ugly shootout soon.

those colored fellas outta go home and pet their dogs.

stop messing around.

and yeah, hey fucking maybe...some of the damage IS state agent/provocateur related....or violent out of state/in-state hate filled psychos.

the Collusion of law enforcement and the sanctioning of armed people, along as they are white...is FUCKED UP!!!

STU

PID

 BIGOT.  GO STROKE YOUR DOG.  MAYBE YOU Will  GET A FIRE WOODY

 Bryen loves  you 

Piss off lltd and,  don't forget to renew your prescription.

That button labeled "Caps Lock" is the one which makes BIG LETTERS for you.

Have some stupid kids come by and teach you keyboard literacy.  Keep them off the streets shooting each other.

What are some of the most common myths and tropes that you hear about looting? 

"One of the ones that's been very powerful, that's both been used by Donald Trump and Democrats, has been the outside agitator myth, that the people doing the riots are coming from the outside. This is a classic. This one goes back to slavery, when plantation owners would claim that it was Freedmen and Yankees coming South and giving the enslaved these crazy ideas—that they were real human beings—and that's why they revolted.

Another trope that's very common is that looters and rioters are not part of the protest, and they're not part of the movement. That has to do with the history of protesters trying to appear respectable and politically legible as a movement, and not wanting to be too frightening or threatening.

Another one is that looters are just acting as consumers: Why are they taking flat screen TVs instead of rice and beans? Like, if they were just surviving, it'd be one thing, but they're taking liquor. All these tropes come down to claiming that the rioters and the looters don't know what they're doing. They're acting, you know, in a disorganized way, maybe an "animalistic" way. But the history of the movement for liberation in America is full of looters and rioters. They've always been a part of our movement."

During recent riots, a sentiment I heard a lot was that looters in cities like Minneapolis were hurting their own cause by destroying small businesses in their own neighborhoods, stores owned by immigrants and people of color. What would you say to people who make that argument?

"People who made that argument for Minneapolis weren't suddenly celebrating the looters in Chicago, who drove down to the richest part of Chicago, the Magnificent Mile, and attacked places like Tesla and Gucci—because It's not really about that. It's a convenient way of positioning yourself as though you are sympathetic.

But looters and rioters don't attack private homes. They don't attack community centers. In Minneapolis, there was a small independent bookstore that was untouched. All the blocks around it were basically looted or even leveled, burned down. And that store just remained untouched through weeks of rioting.

To say you're attacking your own community is to say to rioters, you don't know what you're doing. But I disagree. I think people know. They might have worked in those shops. They might have shopped and been followed around by security guards or by the owner. You know, one of the causes of the L.A. riots was a Korean small-business owner murdering 15-year-old Latasha Harlins, who had come in to buy orange juice. And that was a family-owned, immigrant-owned business where anti-Blackness and white supremacist violence was being perpetrated."

and other reasonings:

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/27/906642178/one-authors...

 “Far-right militants are allowed to engage in violence and walk away while protesters are met with violent police actions.” This “negligent response”, he added, empowers violent groups in dangerous and potentially lethal ways: “The most violent elements within these far-right militant groups believe that their conduct is sanctioned by the government. And therefore they’re much more willing to come out and engage in acts of violence against protesters.”

Hidden in Plain Sight: Racism, White Supremacy, and Far-Right Militancy in Law Enforcement

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sig...

So great, quote NPR bullshit over and over,  but it's still Bullshit.

Yeah , there really are rioters coming from other places to loot, burn, and rob little businesses.

The other bullshit tale "It's OK insurance will take care of it"  means nothing,  because the insurance policies don't pay for damage due to riots.  Imagine if you were not an adult make-believe revolutionary,  but some Korean or Mexican person who spent years struggling to run a small business, paying rent, taxes, and all the other fees.  You came to Peoria or Kansas City or whatever USA place because it was better than the old country.

That's all you have is that little restaurant,  or Quik-E-Mart,  or dry-cleaner shop.  Makes enough to feed the kids and pay the rent / mortgage.

Then overnight a bunch of assholes come around and break the windows,  steal all your stuff, and set everything on fire. The cops don't do anything,  because the Mayor don't give a shit if it's not her house.

Guess what -- that sort of behavior does not win the hearts and minds of any normal person toward your cause.  They are pissed off at you and whatever imaginary facade you claim as your excuse for ruining their lives.

Everyone with a 10th grade degree understands that it's Government agents hiring useful idiots to rile shit up in election year,  but it gets tiresome to see the same playbook all the time,  and have to listen to Media blather from Marxist scripts.

Lol well thanks for answering the questions I guess.

I'd probably ask if you knew jack shit about insuring a business out of a commercial property next, but your ignorant ass already beat me to the punch.

dog lipstick post ^^^^^

hahahahaha

I think you might find a dearth of Marxist scripts in the Media, D. Stu. Pretty sure that's not how they roll.

And back to Kyle Rittenhouse, Stu, I think what you wrote never addressed his actions as being part of a growing group of unbalanced people being over-stimulated by the president, encouraged to take deadly action against humans, murdering people in the street. It's beyond sad, it's wrong, it hurts, and I wish this would be the last time but it won't be.

I have to hope that no one thinks murder, especially by civilians encouraged and supported by the police is okay.

               "Mayor don't give a shit if it's not her house"

>>>a growing group of unbalanced people being over-stimulated by the president, encouraged to take deadly action against humans,is despicable

supporting,  or standing by, or playing Ostrich / ignoring / denying, is despicable

>>violence and looting is bad VIOLENCE AND LOOTING IS BAD

>>wanton destruction may provide an outlet for pent up anger and dismay, but helps no one   BUT HELPS NO ONE

GIVING IS GOOD, STEALING IS BAD<<

being a criminal is bad, opportunistic or otherwise  ( fyi trump is a criminal, clear as day)  BEING A CRIMINAL IS BAD stu

Bryen loves  you, AND  YOUR HUSKY might as well 

I MAY NEED TO GET SOME IBUPROFEN, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE I DON'T NEED A PRESCRIPTION  - 

have a day  pid

here are some videos for mice, showing members of the elite permanent managerial class collecting their sweet, sweet insurance money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcep1xrjHG4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9KQGAT5IDw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6PjD7kzRoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e1ld1uGpXA

It is also not possible to compromise with people who literally reject that actual things like race/class privilege and structural racism (the things people are literally burning police stations and down over) even exist at all in the first place.

what is the alternative? these people vote and in some ways take political action as a block along with other conservatives who might not be racist, but share other core issues, like economic libertarianism, pro life, or evangelical beliefs. this block represents a large percentage of american citizens and the vast majority of landmass in the usa...how would we reorder fundamental structures of society in a way that creates new, stable structures that work for all americans when a large percentage of citizens who occupy most of the land in the country are opposed to that reordering? 

soybean fields do not vote

desert does not vote

land does not vote

why does empty land matter in terms of voting?

>>I think it's more shapely logs (in lawn chairs with lipstick) than bomb making. Maybe some really old Playboy and Penthouse mags under the Beta Max machine.

lol

why does empty land matter in terms of voting?

because if you give up on making this change at a national level, and instead rely on liberal stronghold cities and/or states to make the changes, you are worsening the concept of "the other america" by leaving behind all those poor people and minorities in heavily red and/or rural areas. almost everyone who cares about criminal justice reform will look around their liberal cities or states, see that progress has been made, and those people still suffering under the pre-reform system in red areas will be trapped there without enough voting power to catch up to the rest of the country for several decades.

it might feel like reform has been done if you live in a liberal area that made the change on its own, but that change will not happen in the vast majority of the country unless some kind of attempt at compromise is made.

Well, I think the alternative is probably a civil war, daylight. And honestly I'm slowly starting to believe we are already in the early (low level/asymmetric) stages of that conflict already. Because regardless what any of us "leftists" want or don't want, the outcome of physically fighting against police brutality, and an economy actually organized around the stratification of race, whatever that outcome may be - will only, and mechanically, can only arrive by way of more guns. 

And as a person who has hung up his guns, (yes, I understand guns very well and still believe my life and the lives of those around me are generally safer without them) that scares me very, very, much.

What we are seeing now is the new normal. Until police (all18,000 different jurisdictions of them in the U.S.) stop killing citizens without accountability, ongoing protest in cities across America is the new normal. It won't stop with the election regardless who wins or if the Supreme Court will even be able to decide on that...

Strictly politically speaking, Well, my answer would probably have something to do with forming a more parliamentary form of socialist governance. And I also recognize that is so far out of the realm of reality that it probably doesn't even merit discussion. Sort of like trying to demand pontification about the nuances of property damage and insurance riders in the face of flying fascist bullets.

Can there ever really be justice on stolen land?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/28/fbi-far-right-whit...

And I think the social normalization and numbness of our country's military having been at war, in an expeditionary fashion, perpetually now for an entire generation has just led many people to a very confrontational and warlike posture in their daily lives. And we all own a piece of that to some degree, just as we ultimately own the actions of the police system that we employ and so desperately need to reconcile.

Over the last twenty years, those Americans not directly affected by war and it's machinations (are there any of these people actually left?) have still mostly been socially conditioned into being comfortable living in this mindset of hyper vigilance against domestic terrorism/patriot act/thin blue line/warrior cop/homeland security type of "safety" that we have totally forgotten what not trying to steal, or deny, or take over, or break, or kill anything we don't agree with actually feels like.

And the kids who were in strollers when their fathers were blown up in Iraq what seems like so many years ago (it was), will this year now be old enough to vote in their first presidential election, or to pick up a gun and go fight in the same war as their parents did. Enter Kyle Rittenhouse.

On the lighter side, school shootings are way down now that there is no actual school anymore.

Well, I think the alternative is probably a civil war, daylight.

im not sure if its possible to have a civil war that ends well - during the last one the US was a very different place, each side had 2 official armies, there was an official ending, etc...if we go down this route it will just be small decentralized movements and militias engaging in small skirmishes or terrorist attacks as both are pursued by US law enforcement/armed forces...it will look much more like the sectarian conflicts in the middle east than the US civil war...it probably would not end within any of our lifetimes. 

the outcome of physically fighting against police brutality, and an economy actually organized around the stratification of race, whatever that outcome may be - will only, and mechanically, can only arrive by way of more guns.

so, the fight is more important than the outcome? it seems like the outcome of a permanent violent protest movement/civil war would be drastically worsening division for decades to come and inching even closer to societal collapse.

what an absurd discussion - "im not mature enough to compromise so lets just roll the dice and risk sowing the seeds of permanent political rot/division and violence, and risk destroying any hope of achieving the ideals we want"

we should have gone full force after floyd, burnt down the police station, breifly flirted with chazp/chop, then pack it in and go home, then get back out for a couple weeks after blake - burn down the corrections office, whatever...but the constant protests and violence seem to be desensitizing the people they are intended to bring awareness to 

>>so, the fight is more important than the outcome? it seems like the outcome of a permanent violent protest movement/civil war would be drastically worsening division for decades to come and inching even closer to societal collapse.<<

Totally agree. Are cops going to stop killing people now?

I'm saying fascists don't compromise. That's not immature. That's reality. Do you not think fascism is here? 

I'm saying the presence of justice (the fight for) is more important than the mere absence of conflict (harmony at gunpoint).

And that overall I'm sure we probably agree on more things than not.
 

what is societal collapse anyways? The fall of capitalism? Roving blackouts? Riots in the streets? Going back on the gold standard? That's always struck me as a boogeyman type phrase. 

We elected a lot of lawyers with good educations and successful careers. 

We pay more than enough. 

There are two Americas. 

Lltd called me a "whacka doodle" up somewhere in this thread. Good stuff.

Mice, I reallly like your thoughts and tend to agree with you pretty much on everything. However, the option of a civil war is ridiculous and like Daylight says, would only amount to local militias being destroyed by a massively well armed army.

I agree with you also that a parliamentary system of government if much better, but I don't know if that will ever be possible or not. 

My thinking goes more along the lines of a Taoist wu-wei kind of idea. Why does anybody feel compelled or forced to participate in a system anyways? Sure, in some countries there are literally guns pointing at you forcing you to do something and even then, you can still choose to die. Living in a free society, we can choose. Already, about 50% of the voting electorate does not participate in voting. Think about that. If you and a group of friends wanted to decide what to eat and half the group decided and the other half didn't participate, does that amount to a genuine quorum for a true democratic decision? What if 60% don't vote? What about 70%? At what point does it get so bad that the system itself begins to collapse from the pressures caused by a lack of validation from the voting masses?

I've never voted in my life. I will vote in October for the first time in my life. Why? Because here in Chile we will have a plebiscite to decide whether or not we should write a new constitution and who should write it. For the first time in my life, I feel like I can participate in something that may have genuine ramifications and that will genuinely reflect the voice of the people. I have the hope that from that we can create a new constitution that truly reflects the values of the country, not just those of the ruling class. But at the first sign that the process has been coopted by filthy fucking politicians, I'm out. Fuck you all. I will continue to chop wood and carry water till the day I die. I will raise my children right and healthy, be kind and good and an agent for light in the world, continue to grow and smoke my herbs and live my life just like I always have. 

Turtle, the chuminess between law enforcement and violent far-right groups is common around the world. Their values tend to line up. Here in Chile the same thing happens. Far-right freakshows go out on the street with batons and tasers and a line of cops in front of them protecting them. Meanwhile, a grandmother with bad eyesight and her grandchild by her side and a sign asking for justice and equality gets her shit teargassed and beaten 9 times out of 10.

Everybody knows....that's how it goes....

Thanks javs, I'm not suggesting civil war is really as much of an option as it is a trajectory. And there are many different types of civil wars so I acknowledge it is perhaps slightly irresponsible using that term without clearly defining it. I believe that at some point, our collective rights to assemble en masse and also to bear arms en masse will converge. How can they not? Something like 400 million guns in this country in private ownership right now. I admit I am unable to envision a reaslistic path forward from this moment where America suddenly agrees to 1. Use, own, sell, and manufacture WAY less guns and 2. Our country's structure of systemic racism also all of a sudden crumbles into the void. How? I admit my mind can be changed. Paint me a scenario where America all agrees to having way less guns in its hands, is not obsessed with race and violence anymore, and police will stop killing people long enough for us to build the bridge to get there. ? I'm not saying it's not possible to avoid war or warlike conditions here. I hope very much that it is possible, but my understanding of these issues informs me that we are heading there. Shall not be infringed is woven into our country's dna. It's very much a poison pill.
 

The Posse Comitatus act (by law, FWIW) basically says the president can't point federal military guns at American citizens. And that is a very good thing. This is post civil war (reconstruction era) law. Yeah, trump had the Air Force guarding national monuments or whatever unarmed. That's different and it's also federal property. The closest things to the "military" in public streets would be executive orders of federal police (like Portland, Chicago, etc.) and Gubernatorial use of state national guards. With a very wide range of what you could imagine that would look like, from some governors unwilling to utilize their militias at all, and some all in, and everywhere in between, and some 350,000 citizen soldiers all with differing opinions and ethics just the same way. Most national guards, as states, simply do not have the resources or the organizational structures to conduct ongoing combat operations. State guards are prepared for disaster relief and humanitarian operations domestically, not combat. Their effectiveness and resourcing for anything longer than a few hours or days at a time would be pretty much out of the question. And no governor is going to order it's citizens to roll tanks down their own streets. I can't envision it, anyways. Sure it's possible. So yeah -like daylight said we're back to what I could picture to basically be sporadic gang like or sectarian warfare anywhere and everywhere. Very decentralized and very dangerous. Hellish. Looks like it's going to be an interesting derby day in Louisville this year.

Let's hope Biden wins and Trump and fascism are defeated.

A Constitutional Convention is a good, non-violent option for governmental reform over a civil war.    

Actually,

Judah - Lion,

Doesn't matter which side of the Coin - flip "Wins".

It's a One-Party system,  and a distraction from realistic topics that you or I can't actually change.

Does anyone here actually question why the candidates for Office are low-life Dirtbags and people get excited about it all ?

Could "they" not scrounge up some better specimens for the Show ??  Realistically,  look at these Cartoons.  It's sad.

You should run on the write-in ballot.

Reading more of the Media narrative,  it turns into quite a mish-mosh of tales.

Whether it's all a completely false Tall-Tale or something "Real" the way mass-media portrays it,  the 17 year old half-idiot kid killed a child-rapist,  Jo-Jo who did 13 or so years in Arizona Prison for Child rape.

https://www.bailbondshq.com/arizona/azdoc-inmate-JOSEPH/172556

None of us actually know if these people actually ever existed,  but it's an interesting narrative.  The average person would say "Well that's a stupid kid playing Murder games,  but then again he only killed a Child Rapist".

So from there,  many possible future Tall Tales and narratives.

Probably none of the Media stuff actually happened,  except as a mid-grade special effects movie,  but most people will believe that it's true,  because they saw it on TV.  In the long run it doesn't actually matter,  because the vast majority of people just repeat what they have been told to believe on the Television.

However,  if we allow ourselves to believe that the TV events actually happened,  the average person will eventually hear "That 17 year old kid shot a Child Rapist,  good idea !" Because no sane person has any sympathy for child-rapists,  even if they were just make-believe media constructs.

 families are mourning their sons who were murdered by that 17 year old Nazi. Yeah, shut the fuck up, Incel. 

Change your strain, or maybe change your brain.

Both of the dudes killed were parents of young kids. Neither was a rapist.

Even if one has been convicted of rape and had served their time, it wouldn't justify the shooting. You don't open fire and then get to play hero because one of the victims had a criminal record. 

Honestly, Stu, just honestly...

Stu is still mourning the loss of life from the Bowling Green Massacre though. Reality and facts aren't his strong suit. in fact, he makes BERKOWITZ look sane.  
 

Okay, maybe the dude did have a record. It looked like the offense was in 2002, when he was 19. He had served his time.

Okay, maybe the dude did have a record. It looked like the offense was in 2002, when he was 19. He had served his time.

Another pink dog lipstick post by disco stu. Can someone call the authorities to do a wellness check on Stu? 

Stu, your confusing post at 6:47 a.m. - are you saying anything?

Isn't the reality that a young guy decided to kill people on the street, people he thought he had better ideas than?

I can't see how the pasts of those killed has anything to do with what the killer did.

"they had it coming" is what stu is saying. 

Sure, if someone has ever committed a crime, they deserve to be executed by cops and pubescent incels with semi-automatic weapons. It's especially true if they are black, or if they support the BLM movement.

I guess I don't want to believe that, JR, if that's it.

Also, while I have you here, what's a "pink dog lipstick post"?

Stu, say whatever you want. You can't get banned. 

I don't want to believe that either, Brian.

Stu do you have a record?   Criminal record of any kind?

your true love steals food...

judit, it's the pink shaft that sometimes appears out of a canine's prepuce. 

I think Stu is saying that the whole thing is fake news. Hard saying, not knowing.

Thanks for the definition, JR.

mice - i went back over that article you posted early in this thread...admittedly i did not read it at the time, just read the quotes you posted, but ive heard this article mentioned a few times since then and decided to go back over it and check it out.

ive been going down a pretty serious rabbit hole here...this stuff is CRAZY. it seems like i am being punked, like someone made a caricature of "the left" based on the image of the left pushed by people like tucker carlson, and then wrote an article from this cartoonish perspective...but unfortunately i'm not expecting this osterweil lady to come out and reveal this is some kind of performance art or social experiment.

It also attacks the very way in which food and things are distributed. It attacks the idea of property, and it attacks the idea that in order for someone to have a roof over their head or have a meal ticket, they have to work for a boss, in order to buy things that people just like them somewhere else in the world had to make under the same conditions. It points to the way in which that's unjust. And the reason that the world is organized that way, obviously, is for the profit of the people who own the stores and the factories. So you get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free.

what??? without police we can have things for free? how would that work? this is honestly so stupid im having trouble formulating a response...the rebuttals to this should be obvious to anyone with half a brain - things cant be free...even things provided for "free" by the government are not free, they are funded by tax dollars, collected from people who work, have jobs and add value to the economy.

and somehow its not ok for people to need to work a job to make money in order to buy other things made by people with jobs in exchange for money? if we abolish the police, everything magically becomes free and we dont need jobs anymore, who will produce the food and commercial goods that we are all apparently entitled to for free?

The very basis of property in the U.S. is derived through whiteness and through Black oppression, through the history of slavery and settler domination of the country. Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness and of the police.

again...what???

property is a global concept that exists in all cultures and has existed for all of recorded human history, its not possible for the entire basis of property to be political concepts that only exist in one country and have only existed for a very short period of time...sure, racism and slavery is far older and more global, but the concepts of "whiteness" and "black oppression" in this context seem fairly specific to the USA.

the study cited by the article/interview and hyperlinked in that sentence isnt even saying that...the study is saying that whiteness is a kind of property...its something that white people "own" and has been the basis for allocating power and "societal benefits"...that concept could likely garner its own criticisms, but all in all it seems to make sense and be fairly reasonable...maybe overly semantic, but totally reasonable.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1341787?seq=1

osterweil has twisted this to assert that the whole concept of property and ownership, even of food or standard commercial goods in the US is predicated on "whiteness" and must be attacked by stealing things and smashing windows, apparently.

And also it provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be.

it gives people a sense of pleasure to steal things? not sure i want to know what this "world that could be" might look like if you need theft and violence to imagine it. holy hell. i usually use things like major technological/scientific achievements, stories of people changing their intolerant views, unifying with people from different cultures/worldviews, or ambitious and innovative green energy projects, buy hey, riots work too...i guess. 

But there's also another factor, which is anti-Blackness and contempt for poor people who want to live a better life, which looting immediately provides.

no it does not. looting provides momentary pleasures or necessities. maybe you now have food you could not have otherwise afforded. maybe you have some consumer goods you can sell to help pay the bills. im not unsympathetic to this kind of "robin hood" situation, but living a better life requires longer term solutions - you will eat the food and it will be gone, you will sell the consumer goods, spend the money on bills and it will be gone, now you are back to square one. helping poor folks lead better lives requires things like expending the social safety net and helping people find good, stable jobs that will provide income, food and other necessities into the future. looting provides minor, temporary relief from poverty, and destroys or forces the temporary closure of businesses that can provide jobs to people...it cant provide anyone with a better life, unless what is being suggested is some kind of permanent state of unrest and looting as an antidote to economic inequality...which of course is absurd, and im assuming(hoping) this is not what she meant here.

But looters and rioters don't attack private homes. They don't attack community centers. In Minneapolis, there was a small independent bookstore that was untouched. All the blocks around it were basically looted or even leveled, burned down. And that store just remained untouched through weeks of rioting.

 

demonstrably false. there are many videos and news reports from reputable sources that show or report small businesses being looted or destroyed - some of which are shown in the 4 videos i posted a few days ago. great to hear this small bookstore was spared, many other small businesses have not been so lucky...in fact, when you google "minneapolis bookstore", you dont find any information on this alleged untouched bookstore, but i do see many articles from reputable local sources reporting that a nationally renowned independent bookstore called uncle hugos and uncle edwards was burned to the ground(as well as other articles reporting damage to another independent bookstore/comic shop called Dreamhaven) -  https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2020/06/02/don-blyly-watched..., as well as one church and one community center popping up on the lists of buildings damaged in minneapolis;

Basilica of Saint Mary Minneapolis: Property damage.

...

Longfellow/Seward Healthy Seniors at US Bank building on Lake: Property damage and looting.

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-news/a-list-of-the-buildings-damage...

i tried many different search terms and could not find any info whatsoever to support osterweils claim that an independent bookstore was untouched by rioters while the surrounding businesses were destroyed. however, i did have a sneaking suspicion that if this narrative was true, the impetus behind leaving it untouched may not have been altruistic care for small businesses and essential cultural resources...and sure enough, upon googling "minneapolis progressive bookstore", i found that there is in fact a left wing bookstore called "Mayday Books" in minneapolis. i think its awesome for any community to have a progressive bookstore like this, i wish there were more all over the country...but i dont think its a stretch to wonder if, assuming osterweils narrative is accurate, that the untouched bookstore was mayday books, and the reason it was untouched was not out of compassion for small business owners, their employees or their customers, but rather because the store is plastered with progressive slogans.  

> When it comes to small business, family-owned business or locally owned business, they are no more likely to provide worker protections. They are no more likely to have to provide good stuff for the community than big businesses. It's actually a Republican myth that has, over the last 20 years, really crawled into even leftist discourse: that the small-business owner must be respected, that the small-business owner creates jobs and is part of the community. But that's actually a right-wing myth.

in the paragraph immediately preceding this one, osterwiel defends the looters by highlighting the apparently noble choice to spare a small business, but is now claiming that small businesses are not even a part of the community? very weird.

the articles linked which describe the "republican myth" that small businesses do not create jobs are just pouring over numbers and data, and only takes into consideration new job creation...it does not even address the existing jobs maintained by these small businesses. if a bookstore has been open for a decade, of course it is not creating new jobs, but it is maintaining jobs for current employees or those that will replace them when they move on to another job. the farm i work for has not "created" new jobs in several years...and maybe im biased, but id say that the job the farm is maintaining - mine - has provided me with the means to take care of myself for several years now.

what an absurd notion - that because a small business is not creating new jobs, it does not even count as part of the community, it is ok to destroy or loot it, and the jobs the business maintains, and the people who rely on these jobs are so meaningless they are not even worthy of being acknowledged as an asset to the community if their contents can be looted as a part of some kind of twisted reparation. 

> Ultimately, what nonviolence ends up meaning is that the activist doesn't do anything that makes them feel violent.

so the metric for determining whether or not actions are violent depends on the feelings of the person committing the act? im sure there are many members of armed right wing groups who think they are "defending america" or something silly like that who dont "feel" violent..that does not mean their intimidating presence, shit stirring, overt violence or even murder isnt violent...violence is violence - your feelings dont even come into play for a moment.

how can anyone take this seriously?

So now Rittenhouse is out of jail.  The My Pillow guy and Ricky Schroder helped him post $2,000,000 bail.

unbelievable times we live in

That Ricky Schroder???

Yep