It's the first day of spring, which for me means getting some seeds started indoors today. This year I'm just doing four plants: Blueberry Kush, Chemdawg #4, Skywalker OG, and Tahoe Kush.
I've got a bunch of seeds given to me but they are not feminized. I am going to plant in trays ina couple days. Not sure how to proceed as far as sexing them and what not. Any way to sex them before budding season? I don't have room etc for 20 plants hoping half a dozen will be female.
Mark, there's a way to force flowering early by only giving the plants 12 hours of light a day. If you're working indoors under lights, that's fairly easy to do, but if the plants are outdoors, that means you have to cover them (and uncover them) every day with something that won't let light penetrate for 12 hours, but lets air circulate. For me, that sounds like extra work, added expense, and the likelihood the plants will go back into their vegetative stage after the manipulation and then start flowering again later in the season, which doesn't always produce the best quality bud.
I think it'd be easier to start 10-12 seeds with an eye towards harvesting 6, and let nature do the work. There's a chance all of them will be females, but more likely only about half of them will be.
You might want to think about using feminized seeds next year, Mark. They're not cheap, and usually cost around $10-15 per seed. But if you can get one seed (plus the cost of nutes) to produce 10-12 ounces of finished bud (a reasonable estimate for growing in 10-gallon pots) on total expenses of maybe $40, the cost of the seeds starts to look pretty darn good, and especially when you factor in not needing to invest time, effort, and money on plants that come up male.
Again, thanks Mike. Turns out I found a three variety pack of feminized seeds that I was given a couple months ago. So I am planting tonight, 4 varieties total. 2 days in the fridge and an hour soak in black tea. We'll see how the seeds do and go from there.
For anyone who wants to eventually grow non-fem seeds, thereby allowing you to avoid someone else's pick of the phenotype ( if they even take the time to pheno hunt ) you receive from fem seeds. Sexing is very easy in the veg stage, allowing the grower to not lose precious time placing young veg plants into the flowering cycle and then reverting back to veg.
I used this method on over 14,000 regular seeds I was responsible for starting within the first year of my employment in a huge IL grow. I had an almost 100% success rate with this method, only missing three times, but catching the males very early in the flower cycle. This method also allows you to separate and pick males for eventual pollen capture for breeding and collecting your own seeds, if you're so inclined. Saves a lot of money on buying seeds, as one pollinated female can produce hundreds of plump, healthy seeds.
Males can be accurately sexed in the veg cycle within 3 to 4 weeks, and females within 4 to 6 weeks in the veg cycle, both timelines starting from the germination stage.
You're welcome, Mark. I hope the info helps. Thanks for your tips as well, and for being so benevolent with your skills and time for those in need. I'm glad we got to talk a while back. Cannabis is most certainly genuine healing medicine. :)
You've mentioned this before, Joe, but there still seems to be some variation with fem seeds. I've had plants from the same seed stock that were much taller than their sisters, and had others with very different leaf size and shape too, just to name a few of the differences I've observed. It seems like fem seeds might be limited in some ways by the parent's genetics, but they're not identical.
Hey Mike, yes, fem seeds will show genetic variations within the same strain, just like regular seeds, but the grower who fenmed those seeds may or may not have taken the time to fem a specific pheno that exhibited higher, desired qualities of that specific strain, ie., total cannabinoid / terpene content. The more expensive seeds most likely came from a grower who put in the work. For the more expensive seeds, a buyer should be able to see test results of the mature female.
For bigger grows, even in a dedicated basement, regular seeds allow the grower a wider number of phenos to pick from, test and run.
Not necessarily that cheaper seeds mean that the grower didn't go the extra mile, but the extra mile is more plants grown to pick from, more time, more labor and more testing costs.
Thanks, Joe. I get the basic concept of pheno hunting, but I think most hobby growers, which is what I consider myself, are looking for consistency more than variety, and don't have the resources to start a bunch of plants (many of which will come up male) and raise them to the point where things like total cannabinoid/terpene content can be judged. Doesn't that pretty much require an entire grow season?
I have a couple of seed banks I've been buying fem seeds from the last few years, and I've been happy with the results I've been getting; stony smoke that tastes great and produces good yields. I've had 100% germination with these seeds, no males to deal with, and the business end of things works for me too. Both seed banks are in the US, which means no goofy payment methods like money orders, international bank transfers, or bitcoin, and the seeds typically hit my mailbox about a week after I place an order. So for me, fem seeds just make sense, but I'm glad there are folks out there who haven't given up the hunt because it's folks like you who make sure I can easily and consistently purchase a quality product.
If it wasn't for hobby growers, the seed banks would be going out of business. Weed growing should, above all else, be an enjoyable learning experience with sticky, stinky rewards for the efforts, care and Love infused by the grower. I hope this grow season is another good one for you.
But if you ever decide to try regular seeds, you also have the info to determine gender in veg plants if you choose to.
>>>Doesn't that pretty much require an entire grow season?
Yes, but 100 days indoors is very much worth finding a premium pheno.
I'll find a male I like ( structure, vigor, disease resistance ) and capture the pollen. Once the selected females are flowered ( not before cloning them right before flowering) and tested for total cannabinoid content and terpene profile, then I'll select one female and clone her, guaranteeing an exact genetic copy, round after round.
Cannabinoid and terp testing here isn't expensive, but for a full panel of testing for every 15lbs of cured flower product, it also includes heavy metals, pesticides, bacterial and fungal species, that's a different matter. We need full panel testing in order to sell to dispos. One failure on any of those panels and that 15lb batch cant be sold. Those test results also are acquired by the dispo owners and are always available for the patient to see
The reason for genetic stability in a medical market is simply because if a patient likes the effects of the selected strain and its chemical profiles, that's what they want. Variability is too risky. I love hearing from patients who love our strains. Lots of veterans, back pain, depression, stomach problems and those who just like to get stoned. 36 yrs of indoor growing, and I still love it.
i recently popped some seeds we had from a strain we grow ( Wedding Cake x Ghost Train Haze) just to get a specific male for pollen. Once i collected that pollen, i hand pollinated a female of our other strain ( Lime Skunk x Ghost OG *Kush ) and got a couple hundred fat, healthy seeds from that cross. Excited to see how those females will produce.
Thanks, Joe. Like i said above, I get the basic concept of pheno hunting, but it's the propagation end of the process that's always baffled me, and that's the part that makes me think casual growers like me should just leave the hunt to the experts. Even if I were to start a bunch of plants and find a primo specimen, I don't have a way to keep a mother.
As for making seeds, it seems like there's a lot of uncertainty in that process. I'm pretty much at the edge of my knowledge at this point, so forgive me if I get this wrong, but I believe you won't know how that new cross turns out until you grow it out, and even then, you won't know if it's a stable cross until you've produced a number of generations. And it's all this uncertainty that once again drives home for me the idea that pheno hunting is not really a practical pursuit for casual growers like myself.
So I'm wondering what you might call that new cross you mentioned in your last post. Since both parents have some Ghost in them, it seems like that should be in the name. Maybe something like Okie Ghost Funk, or OG Funk for short?
>>>you won't know if it's a stable cross until you've produced a number of generations.
All it needs to not do is hermie in the indoor environment that is provided. Once I know that, then it's clone time, and that guarantees an exact genetic copy every time of that specific pheno picked from growth qualities and test results.
As far as a name goes, that usually comes to me on its own.
My girls are three weeks post-emergence, and looking good. Fourth set of palmate leaves are just showing, so I'll probably do my first topping in a week or so.
Total disaster. Half a dozen shot up 3 inches and fell over. Died with no leaves. No others even emerged. I treated them like peppers and tomatoes. In a tray with a cover. Tough yr. Only about half my peppers emerged and doing well. No tomatoes or Tomatillos. Replanted veggies last night but no more seeds for weed. Pretty bummed but I will get another 2 or 3 plants from my indoor buddy and try and do better with them this yr.
Well that sucks. If you want to try again, shoot me an email with your mailing address and I'll send you some fem seeds. My email's in my profile.
I start mine a half-inch deep in 1 gallon pots with soil that's been thoroughly watered and drained. That way I only have one transplant into the containers they'll finish in. I don't need to water for the first 2-3 weeks, and then when I do, I use a turkey baster and only water around the rim of the pot to encourage root growth.
I keep them in a closet where the temp is 65-70° and the humidity's is 60-65%. I have a T5 florescent fixture (four 2-foot tubes) and keep the light about 15" from the top of the plants for the first week or so, and then drop it to a foot once they have their first set of palmate leaves. They're on a 14 hour light cycle because that's what they'll be getting when I move them outdoors in mid-May.
If yours shot up to 3 inches and then fell over it sounds like they might not have had sufficient light (stretch), and maybe too much water/moisture (stem failure).
Too much moisture sounds about right. I have a really good LED Growlight fixture on 18 hrs per day, so I don't think it was lack of light. I will forego the seed tray in the future and just plant in 1 gal pots next time. Thanks for your help.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
I've got a bunch of seeds
I've got a bunch of seeds given to me but they are not feminized. I am going to plant in trays ina couple days. Not sure how to proceed as far as sexing them and what not. Any way to sex them before budding season? I don't have room etc for 20 plants hoping half a dozen will be female.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Mark, there's a way to force
Mark, there's a way to force flowering early by only giving the plants 12 hours of light a day. If you're working indoors under lights, that's fairly easy to do, but if the plants are outdoors, that means you have to cover them (and uncover them) every day with something that won't let light penetrate for 12 hours, but lets air circulate. For me, that sounds like extra work, added expense, and the likelihood the plants will go back into their vegetative stage after the manipulation and then start flowering again later in the season, which doesn't always produce the best quality bud.
I think it'd be easier to start 10-12 seeds with an eye towards harvesting 6, and let nature do the work. There's a chance all of them will be females, but more likely only about half of them will be.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Thanks Mike.
Thanks Mike.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
You might want to think about
You might want to think about using feminized seeds next year, Mark. They're not cheap, and usually cost around $10-15 per seed. But if you can get one seed (plus the cost of nutes) to produce 10-12 ounces of finished bud (a reasonable estimate for growing in 10-gallon pots) on total expenses of maybe $40, the cost of the seeds starts to look pretty darn good, and especially when you factor in not needing to invest time, effort, and money on plants that come up male.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Again, thanks Mike. Turns
Again, thanks Mike. Turns out I found a three variety pack of feminized seeds that I was given a couple months ago. So I am planting tonight, 4 varieties total. 2 days in the fridge and an hour soak in black tea. We'll see how the seeds do and go from there.
watermelon/ milk shake femmed
Foxy cereal milk / jungle juice femmed
frosted flakes BX frosted flakes / cereal milk femmed
Melted Rainbow and Starburst 36 not femmed.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Nice. That's going to make
Nice. That's going to make things much easier for you.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
It's day five and two of my
It's day five and two of my beans have emerged. Should see the other two in the next 24 hours.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Third seed emerged late
Third seed emerged late yesterday, and the fourth came up overnight. Here we go.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
For anyone who wants to
For anyone who wants to eventually grow non-fem seeds, thereby allowing you to avoid someone else's pick of the phenotype ( if they even take the time to pheno hunt ) you receive from fem seeds. Sexing is very easy in the veg stage, allowing the grower to not lose precious time placing young veg plants into the flowering cycle and then reverting back to veg.
I used this method on over 14,000 regular seeds I was responsible for starting within the first year of my employment in a huge IL grow. I had an almost 100% success rate with this method, only missing three times, but catching the males very early in the flower cycle. This method also allows you to separate and pick males for eventual pollen capture for breeding and collecting your own seeds, if you're so inclined. Saves a lot of money on buying seeds, as one pollinated female can produce hundreds of plump, healthy seeds.
Males can be accurately sexed in the veg cycle within 3 to 4 weeks, and females within 4 to 6 weeks in the veg cycle, both timelines starting from the germination stage.
Link to a good article with accurate pics.
https://www.growweedeasy.com/preflowers
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Thanks Joe!
Thanks Joe!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
You're welcome, Mark. I hope
You're welcome, Mark. I hope the info helps. Thanks for your tips as well, and for being so benevolent with your skills and time for those in need. I'm glad we got to talk a while back. Cannabis is most certainly genuine healing medicine. :)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
> avoid someone else's pick
> avoid someone else's pick of the phenotype
You've mentioned this before, Joe, but there still seems to be some variation with fem seeds. I've had plants from the same seed stock that were much taller than their sisters, and had others with very different leaf size and shape too, just to name a few of the differences I've observed. It seems like fem seeds might be limited in some ways by the parent's genetics, but they're not identical.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
Hey Mike, they won't be
Hey Mike, yes, fem seeds will show genetic variations within the same strain, just like regular seeds, but the grower who fenmed those seeds may or may not have taken the time to fem a specific pheno that exhibited higher, desired qualities of that specific strain, ie., total cannabinoid / terpene content. The more expensive seeds most likely came from a grower who put in the work. For the more expensive seeds, a buyer should be able to see test results of the mature female.
For bigger grows, even in a dedicated basement, regular seeds allow the grower a wider number of phenos to pick from, test and run.
Not necessarily that cheaper seeds mean that the grower didn't go the extra mile, but the extra mile is more plants grown to pick from, more time, more labor and more testing costs.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Thanks, Joe. I get the basic
Thanks, Joe. I get the basic concept of pheno hunting, but I think most hobby growers, which is what I consider myself, are looking for consistency more than variety, and don't have the resources to start a bunch of plants (many of which will come up male) and raise them to the point where things like total cannabinoid/terpene content can be judged. Doesn't that pretty much require an entire grow season?
I have a couple of seed banks I've been buying fem seeds from the last few years, and I've been happy with the results I've been getting; stony smoke that tastes great and produces good yields. I've had 100% germination with these seeds, no males to deal with, and the business end of things works for me too. Both seed banks are in the US, which means no goofy payment methods like money orders, international bank transfers, or bitcoin, and the seeds typically hit my mailbox about a week after I place an order. So for me, fem seeds just make sense, but I'm glad there are folks out there who haven't given up the hunt because it's folks like you who make sure I can easily and consistently purchase a quality product.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
If it wasn't for the hobby
If it wasn't for hobby growers, the seed banks would be going out of business. Weed growing should, above all else, be an enjoyable learning experience with sticky, stinky rewards for the efforts, care and Love infused by the grower. I hope this grow season is another good one for you.
But if you ever decide to try regular seeds, you also have the info to determine gender in veg plants if you choose to.
>>>Doesn't that pretty much require an entire grow season?
Yes, but 100 days indoors is very much worth finding a premium pheno.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
I'm curious. How do you
I'm curious. How do you propagate that primo pheno once you've found it? Clone it until you find a primo male as well?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
I'll find a male I like (
I'll find a male I like ( structure, vigor, disease resistance ) and capture the pollen. Once the selected females are flowered ( not before cloning them right before flowering) and tested for total cannabinoid content and terpene profile, then I'll select one female and clone her, guaranteeing an exact genetic copy, round after round.
Cannabinoid and terp testing here isn't expensive, but for a full panel of testing for every 15lbs of cured flower product, it also includes heavy metals, pesticides, bacterial and fungal species, that's a different matter. We need full panel testing in order to sell to dispos. One failure on any of those panels and that 15lb batch cant be sold. Those test results also are acquired by the dispo owners and are always available for the patient to see
The reason for genetic stability in a medical market is simply because if a patient likes the effects of the selected strain and its chemical profiles, that's what they want. Variability is too risky. I love hearing from patients who love our strains. Lots of veterans, back pain, depression, stomach problems and those who just like to get stoned. 36 yrs of indoor growing, and I still love it.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
i recently popped some seeds
i recently popped some seeds we had from a strain we grow ( Wedding Cake x Ghost Train Haze) just to get a specific male for pollen. Once i collected that pollen, i hand pollinated a female of our other strain ( Lime Skunk x Ghost OG *Kush ) and got a couple hundred fat, healthy seeds from that cross. Excited to see how those females will produce.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Thanks, Joe. Like i said
Thanks, Joe. Like i said above, I get the basic concept of pheno hunting, but it's the propagation end of the process that's always baffled me, and that's the part that makes me think casual growers like me should just leave the hunt to the experts. Even if I were to start a bunch of plants and find a primo specimen, I don't have a way to keep a mother.
As for making seeds, it seems like there's a lot of uncertainty in that process. I'm pretty much at the edge of my knowledge at this point, so forgive me if I get this wrong, but I believe you won't know how that new cross turns out until you grow it out, and even then, you won't know if it's a stable cross until you've produced a number of generations. And it's all this uncertainty that once again drives home for me the idea that pheno hunting is not really a practical pursuit for casual growers like myself.
So I'm wondering what you might call that new cross you mentioned in your last post. Since both parents have some Ghost in them, it seems like that should be in the name. Maybe something like Okie Ghost Funk, or OG Funk for short?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: dimethyllovebeam
>>>you won't know if it's a
>>>you won't know if it's a stable cross until you've produced a number of generations.
All it needs to not do is hermie in the indoor environment that is provided. Once I know that, then it's clone time, and that guarantees an exact genetic copy every time of that specific pheno picked from growth qualities and test results.
As far as a name goes, that usually comes to me on its own.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
My girls are three weeks post
My girls are three weeks post-emergence, and looking good. Fourth set of palmate leaves are just showing, so I'll probably do my first topping in a week or so.
How're things looking for you, Mark?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Total disaster. Half a dozen
Total disaster. Half a dozen shot up 3 inches and fell over. Died with no leaves. No others even emerged. I treated them like peppers and tomatoes. In a tray with a cover. Tough yr. Only about half my peppers emerged and doing well. No tomatoes or Tomatillos. Replanted veggies last night but no more seeds for weed. Pretty bummed but I will get another 2 or 3 plants from my indoor buddy and try and do better with them this yr.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Well that sucks. If you want
Well that sucks. If you want to try again, shoot me an email with your mailing address and I'll send you some fem seeds. My email's in my profile.
I start mine a half-inch deep in 1 gallon pots with soil that's been thoroughly watered and drained. That way I only have one transplant into the containers they'll finish in. I don't need to water for the first 2-3 weeks, and then when I do, I use a turkey baster and only water around the rim of the pot to encourage root growth.
I keep them in a closet where the temp is 65-70° and the humidity's is 60-65%. I have a T5 florescent fixture (four 2-foot tubes) and keep the light about 15" from the top of the plants for the first week or so, and then drop it to a foot once they have their first set of palmate leaves. They're on a 14 hour light cycle because that's what they'll be getting when I move them outdoors in mid-May.
If yours shot up to 3 inches and then fell over it sounds like they might not have had sufficient light (stretch), and maybe too much water/moisture (stem failure).
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
(No subject)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Too much moisture sounds
Too much moisture sounds about right. I have a really good LED Growlight fixture on 18 hrs per day, so I don't think it was lack of light. I will forego the seed tray in the future and just plant in 1 gal pots next time. Thanks for your help.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
What do you use for potting
What do you use for potting soil?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Semolina Pilchard
Fox Farm Ocean Forest
Fox Farm Ocean Forest
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: MarkD
Thanks
Thanks