American Jews: The Great Disloyalty

Additional Trump news:

'Swastika' ride closed by German theme park

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/swastika-ride-closed-german-theme-180205760.html

Awww shit...  i will now go sit quietly in the corner.

King of Israel and second coming of God

Cool. Let’s nail Trump to a cross!

Insulting both 79% of the American Jewish population and the entire country of Denmark in one day?  I am not usually phased by the stupid shit flowing from this guy's mouth, but just wondering what it will be like to have a "normal" president again.   This guy makes Nixon look stable and "W" a genius.

There are two members of congress that are supporting a movement that wants Israel and its people wiped off the map and their party isn't denouncing this. I have many Jewish friends with a lot of different political views that think this is crazy

huh?

>> two members of congress that are supporting a movement that wants Israel and its people wiped off the map <<

I've seen them make statements against the State of Israel in a political context, but nothing about Jewish people.

The Second Coming -

Dickey + Dale Betts Jacksonville early 69 - Berry Oakley was also in the band

I was just out to dinner with 5 Jewish college friends and this was a topic of conversation. Not a long conversation because we weren't out to argue about politics. 2 of them are super liberal trump haters and 3 are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. They all think the BDS movement is horrible. I'll tell you how they 'squared' it.

They see the trump white supremacy thing in two contexts. This video is one and the cnn/msnbc /NY times is the other

https://www.prageru.com/video/the-charlottesville-lie/

Overall the BDS thing trumps it all but none of them think he's antisemitic. Basically the 2 liberals think he's racist horrible person. The others are mixed on his character and to some degree think some things are taken out of context. Some like many of his policies but hate him, etc. It was like a mini Thanksgiving dinner and drinks quickly turned the politics off

"Insulting both 79% of the American Jewish population and the entire country of Denmark in one day?  I am not usually phased by the stupid shit flowing from this guy's mouth, but just wondering what it will be like to have a "normal" president again.   This guy makes Nixon look stable and "W" a genius."

Sorry, Ken - the bubble's been burst. This IS the new normal. I'd be shocked if there's ever a return. My guess is people will now realise that shock value and reality TV wins elections and not only that: you can keep the world pegged to your Twitter feed while you gut regulations for workers, the environment, etc. and all the while people will not really notice what is actually happening. Hope I'm wrong...

As for the two members of the Democratic Party wanting Israel and its people wiped off the map, well, that's bullshit. The typical bullshit argument raised against anyone who dares question the Israeli state. Questioning the violence and repression caused regularly by the Israeli state, as well as the support given to these policies by American funding is logical and IS NOT anti-semitism. So yeah, you wanna paint people with a broad antisemitic brush, go ahead. But you're just perpetuating empty right-wing political talking points, you're not actually discussing facts.

BDS co-founder "No Palestinian will ever accept a Jewish state in Palestine." Iran funds them and Iran wants them wiped off the map.

I didn't say that the two congresswomen wanted them wiped off the map but they do support the movement.

I also think it's ridiculous to think that the whole republican party supports anyone marching with torches and saying those things. The US is one of the most tolerant non-racist countries non-antisemitic countries in the world

I also think it's ridiculous to think that the the two congresswomen support the entirety of the BDS doctrine simply because they speak out against Palestinian oppression in Israel and Gaza.

See how that works?

Just so everyone is on the same page, both the comments of Rep. Omar and Trump touched on a very sensitive subject when it comes to anti-Semitism - the question of dual loyalty and the idea that Jews are supposedly more loyal to themselves as an ethnic group than to their respective nationalities.  That idea has been used for over a 1000 years to persecute Jews and treat them as dangerous outsiders.  In Omar's case, this led to a bipartisan condemnation and the lawmaker apologized for the remark: 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/07/700901834/minnesota-congresswoman-ignites...

In Trump's case, I think he was was suggesting something different, specifically that many American Jews were not loyal enough to Israel, which is still plain stupid and extremely condescending to say the least​.  But I don't think Trump is particularly anti-Semitic (although he allegedly called Jeffery Epstein a "Jew Bastard" when arguing over who got to deflower an underage girl).  On the contrary, he likes to surround himself with Jews who he views as smart and successful.  He certainly didn't mind his daughter converting to Judaism and dotes on his Jewish son-in-law like nobody's business.     

As for Rep. Tlaib, she made a comments about how she had a "calming feeling" when thinking about the Holocaust, but the statement was clearly taken out of context.  However, she also said she was in favor of a "one state solution," which basically means eliminating Israel as a country.   So her comments went well beyond simply criticizing Israeli government policy.   

can we stop sending them $$$$ now?

how come its cool for israeli soldiers to shoot unarmed protestors, children and such?
 

when will they stop building condos in occupied territories?

Well I see it like supporting the Nazis but not everything they stand for

<how come its cool for israeli soldiers to shoot unarmed protestors, children and such?>

because they're brainwashed and indoctrinated by the state from an early age?

As far as celebrities or well known people trump was one of the only people that I've heard of that took a stance against epstein by barring him from his club years ago after the guy hit on a member's daughter. I would say that is at least one good thing the guy did. 

^ hi Tom, just as a heads-up, be expected to provide a full accounting of your ties to Russia and Vladimir Putin to this message board soon.

Israel shoots, maims and kills unarmed civilians including children who are in close proximity to their border. 

Is that ok? 

Can the US start doing the same thing on its border?

Can the US respond to it's domestic terrorists by killing everyone around them?

Yes, I'm aware that saying anything positive about many subjects, especially trump, will trigger some zoners.  I just honestly haven't heard of anyone standing up to epstein which is pathetic. I apologize in advance for my two cents and I'll shut up now

Tom, when you put things in quotes, it's usually followed by some kind of citation. Like when you say that founder of BDS does not believe that an Israeli state should exist, I don't know who you are talking about and I have no verification that he/she said what you claim they said. I'm not saying that it's not true - just that I won't take it as fact just because you say it.

^lol

>>>when you say that founder of BDS does not believe that an Israeli state should exist, I don't know who you are talking about and I have no verification that he/she said what you claim they said.

I will help you out:

https://www.creativecommunityforpeace.com/about-bds/

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/bds-in-their-own-words​

However, as I understand it, "BDS" is a political movement and ideology, not a specific, structured organization like the Boy Scouts or Mothers Against Drunk Driving.   I don't know enough about who these folks making the statements are to be able to say any of them are a "co-founder" of anything.  One tactic Fox News likes to use is to find the most wacky liberal professor from some unknown liberal arts college who says some pretty extreme, far out things and use them as the face of modern academia.   Just because some in the BDS movement call for the elimination of Israel as a country doesn't mean they all subscribe to it.

But apparently Rep. Tlaib does support a "one state solution" that would eliminate Israel as a country and says she supports that position out of "love, for equality and justice":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/13/politics/rashida-tlaib-holocaust-comments...

And one more thing about Trump's asinine comments today about American Jews not being loyal enough to Israel, although Trump is not anti-Semitic himself, the statement is in that he complains that American Jews aren't living up to the old stereotype of putting their ethnic identity ahead of loyalty to one's country. 

 >>>   I just honestly haven't heard of anyone standing up to epstein which is pathetic.

Trump's Secretary of Labor was asked about his sweetheart deal with Epstein in the transition vetting.

They knew.

They appointed him anyway.

not much "standing up" there

Nice to see Lassen slowly turning from the dark side. Glad you're moving to the light.

Poor thom seems to be losing an ally.

Our Divider In Chief -

If he ain't pissing someone off puttin' his own foot in his mouth he'll twist someone else's words till his damage is done. And the base never wavers. The chosen one, hahaaa it all works for him, repubs are dumber than a bag'a hammers - he out stupids himself on a daily basis to keep his followers intrigued. Deviously brilliant strategy.

All my Jewish friends loathe that mutherfucker

>>> All my Jewish friends loathe that mutherfucker <<<

What's not to loathe?

https://twitter.com/cbctom/status/1164320873588973569

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status/1164320513528934401

Hey Ken, thanks for taking the time to clarify that. As always, your analysis is spot on. I agree on all points: no clue who that dude is or if he's a founder, BDS doesn't seem to have a central nucleus as an organization, and Tlaib's declarations are pretty deplorable. I don't know that saying that you support BDS is the same as saying that you support the eradication of the Israeli state, though, because, as mentioned before, there doesn't seem to be an organized system of ideals. So from that angle, I've only seen information to strongly inform my feelings about one person, and that's Tlaib (based on those declarations in the link). 

None of that changes the fact that Trump is a hate filled truth distorter or that while he's drumming up constant media attention he allows the space for all the executive branch to function with no barriers and little attention being paid to the real underlying changes I assume he's making...

As much as I'd prefer Elizabeth Warren to win, it would be be pretty hysterical  if Bernie 'replaced' Trump.  

and something postivie to think about: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/parkland-students-unveil-sweepin...

Weird, every day I feel there is no way I can loathe this orange piece of shit any more than I already do, but alas there is more room to go.

.

Pence - such a wise choice for Trump to make, like it really has to get really weird for anyone to say, let’s turn this over to Pence......

impeachment? You want Pence at the wheel? Are your u fuckin crazy

>>>>>However, she also said she was in favor of a "one state solution," which basically means eliminating Israel as a country.

Many conservative Israelis are also in favor of a one-state solution. They want to eliminate Palestine as a potentially governable state and live in an apartheid Israel.

^^^^

Yep.  Many of those ultra-nationalist Israelis can be real racist pricks who actively try to sabotage the peace process.  Its a problem for sure.

I think that's a fairly common attitude among Israeli's, Surfdead, and I find it just as deplorable as I do the other side. The big difference is that Israel is holding ALL the cards in this situation and therefore their nationalism translates into systematic oppression of an entire ethnicity whereas the other side has rocks and garage-built missiles that don't explode on impact. 

I’m going to throw this out there:

Since the Second Intifada, the Palestinian to Israeli death ratio is 4:1. If Hamas leadership had the ability, it would surely be 1:1,000. For all the rockets they lob they can’t hit shit, but it’s not for lack of trying.

Same old shit in this thread:  condemnation of Israel and painting a fairy tale view of Palestinian leadership. Israel definitely needs to do something different, and so does Hamas. It’s not just action/reaction from one side.

I’d love to see some viable solutions presented here. Blaming Israel for everything isn’t a solution, nor is the idea that either side just disappears.

Stop shooting unarmed civilians because of their proximity to a wall. 

Same old shit, Slack. Should Hamas also stop lobbing rockets into Israel proper, or is that cool with you?

maybe they should put the palestinians in dog cages like we do to central americans bk.

Brian, I would like to see where exactly anyone painted the Palestinian leadership in a fairy tale manner - please, don't project your preconceptions on to reality.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that right now for every Israeli that dies, 4 Palestinians are killed (source?), right? And then you SPECULATE that if Hamas had the ability the Palestinians would kill 1,000 Israelis for every Palestinian killed. So, when you talk about painting people with a misinformed and prejudiced view, how do you defend your speculation about the Palestinian people? It's pretty clear that it's based on your speculation and has no basis in fact - you know, evidence.

However, it IS a fact (if I read you correctly) that 4 Palestinians are currently being killed for every Israeli killed, yes? If that's the case, shouldn't we look at the FACTS and not our prejudiced speculation on what somebody would potetially do in a situation? Isn't that what you're asking us to do?

They should. 

What should be done to IDF for maiming or killing unarmed civilians? 

From the looks of this chart I would say the 4:1 ratio is WAY low. 

Source:

https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/charts/

BrianK is NOT biased towards Israel. YOU HEAR ME!?

Javs, a few months ago I went on Wiki and added up all the deaths on either side. Those numbers were culled from multiple sources, which I checked out.

I made a point of not painting the Palestinian people with a broad stroke. Hamas is not the Palestinian people, just like Bibi and his fuckheads aren’t the Israeli people.

The one broad stroke that I will paint is that the vast majority of people on both sides want peace and a chance at prosperity. Again, Id love to read some viable ideas about how to get there.

Its unfortunate that there has been not much traction on a viable peace plan for over ten years.  Seems like they are content with the same old tit-for-tat shit and there is plenty of blame to go around.   However, once they are serious about trying to get this resolved, it seems like the following must happen:

* Free and independent Palestine (not sure how Fatah and Hamas would work this out between themselves, and there may end up being separate states in Gaza and the West Bank)

* Robust international commitments to assist Palestine in developing infrastructure needed to support an independent economy that isn't reliant on low wage work in Israel. Palestine (especially Hamas controlled Gaza) has to also get their shit together when it comes to reigning in militants and improving internal security.  The international community can provide assistance in this regard too.

* Dismantling of many of the newer settlements in the West Bank (they need to stop building new ones, like right now).   However, some of the oldest and largest settlements are over 50 years old and its not realistic to shut them down, so . . . 

* Israel needs to adjust the 1967 borders to accommodate the bigger settlements which aren't practical to close and, in exchange for peace, give substantial and productive land to Palestine (not just crappy rocks and desert).   I don't see how a lasting peace can be accomplished without a land for peace exchange and understand that the Obama administration had some proposed maps that would accomplish this purpose.

Fair enough, BK, but your prejudice is still pretty blatant and biased. You can't make a comment like the one you made about Hamas and then act like you're impartial. How about I temper your comment with my own unfounded biases?

If the Israeli state left the illegally occupied territories, allowed the Palestinians to have an independent self-governing state and stopped blockading the flow of goods and supplies to Palestine, then Hamas would realise that they don't need to fight anymore and become a political party like Sinn Fein in Ireland or the political party that grew out of ETA in the Basque country. 

See, I can make speculations, too, but the truth is neither of us knows or can say with certainty what would happen.

However, IMO, the onus of the situation is quite clearly on the Israeli government to make concessions. They created a country where there wasn't one before by violently displacing people who lived there, imported thousands of immigrants from around the world to create their Jewish state and then proceeded to oppress and terrorize the Palestinian people for the next 70 years. They have all the power, they hold all the cards. The Palestinians are a desperate powerless minority struggling to retain some sense of identity and culture which the Israelis are deliberately attempting to eliminate. I believe that's what is known as genocide, no? So yeah, I'm sorry, but I'm going to continue to be apologetic for the Palestinian REACTION to the constant violence of the Israeli government, particularly in consideration of the fact that they can't hit the side of a barn from 10 feet away with their crappy homemade hardware and I will continue to condemn the systematic violence perpetrated by the Israeli government using the hardware supplied by the most powerful nation on the Earth. Maybe you'll think I'm a hypocrite because of that and maybe you're right. But in mind, there is no parallel whatsoever between the extreme violence applied by the Israeli government (military, political, psychological violence) and the reaction from the colonized Palestinians.

Ken, your proposals are all very reasonable and intelligent and will never ever happen. The Israelis have no intention of ever giving the Palestinians any kind of autonomy. Furthermore, their military campaign against the Palestinians is an important part of the military economy of the United States. In other words, there is no real desire to stop that machine. And as long as you have people like Bibi and Trump in power, nothing will change unless it's to the benefit of the Israeli government.

The BDS movement is dedicated to ending Israel’s “occupation and colonization of all Arab lands” and dismantling the security barrier separating Israel and the West Bank. Its other stated goals are to achieve full equality for Arab Israelis and allow Palestinian refugees from the 1948 War of Independence (and their descendants) to return to their former homes in Israel. Many Jewish and Israeli leaders see the effort as a discriminatory attempt to undermine Israel’s legitimacy as a Jewish state. One of the leaders of the BDS movement, Omar Barghouti, has said that he opposes “a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.”

Am I correct in assuming that those on this thread that support BDS also believe that Israel should no longer exist?  The latest claim is that people who support BDS are not anti-Semitic just anti-Zionist. When an American congresswoman uses anti-Semitic tropes, like “it’s all about the Benjamin’s baby,” is that acceptable behavior, worthy of support?  

Is it ok for the PLO to continually toss rockets (that they cannot direct) into Israel?  Is it wrong of Israel to defend itself when that happens?  

Dave, what should be done to IDF for maiming or killing unarmed civilians? 

>>>>And as long as you have people like Bibi and Trump in power, nothing will change unless it's to the benefit of the Israeli government.

Seems like getting them out of power would be a step in the right direction. 

Maybe I am being too optimistic, but most Israelis do support a two-state solution and they did in fact give Gaza pretty much full independence back in 2006. Gaza's economy is in shambles, of course, and they get whooped on a regular basis every time the al-Qassam Brigades start lobbing over their stupid rockets (although not really high tech, they do kill and terrorize people) but they are by and large self governing.  And as a side note on the "blockade," there is the Rafah crossing into Egypt which Israel doesn't control and could be a conduit for whatever they need.  However, Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab countries have shat on the Palestinians just as bad as the Israelis have (e.g. Black September) and really need to up their game in helping Palestine get on its feet. 

 That being said, I am still hopeful and peace is possible:

>Am I correct in assuming that those on this thread that support BDS also believe that Israel should no longer exist?<

no. nobody said that.

jesus christ. its the POLICIES of the crazy right-wing israeli GOVT. that are the issue.

why is this so difficult for people to grasp?

>>They created a country where there wasn't one before by violently displacing people who lived there, imported thousands of immigrants from around the world to create their Jewish state and then proceeded to oppress and terrorize the Palestinian people for the next 70 year

Boy, talk about biased and inflammatory language that isn’t 100% accurate. “They,” the Jews, didn’t create Israel. It was created by a colonial power, exactly the same way as about 100 other nations were in a 30 year period. Not all Palestinians were displaced, and it wasn’t violent for all that were. After 1948 about 600,000 Jews from Muslim countries emigrated to Israel, not because they were Zionists, but because they were persecuted and beat down.

Now, how about the future? It will take proactive efforts on both sides. What can be done, and how?

>What can be done, and how?<

stop and disband settlements

give back territories

stop the apartheid state

stop shooting/bombing each other

Yep Turts, all those would help. One ore two have their own complications though. What does Hamas have to do? 

>>>>What does Hamas have to do? 

I think that would fall under point no. 4 - stop shooting/bombing each other.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/casualties-of-war-2

"The BDS movement is dedicated to ending Israel’s “occupation and colonization of all Arab lands”

Geez, Dave, way to not read the thread. If you had you would know by now that there is NO centralized BDS movement with any kind of central tenent. There is an idea that is shared by a broad group of actors related who all believe that economic action should be taken against Israel. Some people, like the one you quote (which we also talked about already) are of the blow-up-Israel mentality. However, there is nothing to indicate that that person's attitude is representative of a group, nor is there anything to indicate that he is a leader of anything. Leader of what? There is NO organization....

Ken, you're right. The Muslim Arab nations should be more supportive, yes, but they're not responsible for what happened to the Palestinians - the Israelis are.

BK, Israel was founded as part of a colonialist movement by the British, yes. However, to ignore the massive Zionist lobby behind that decision is to either knowingly omit information to benefit your argument or just plain ignorant. The boundaries for that state were drawn long before it appeared in an official government body. And your assertion that the 600,000 were brought because they were oppressed is bullshit. Why didn't they bring in any other oppressed minorities? Where are all the LGBTQ immigrants? Gypsies? Do you really think it's a coincidence that the Jewish population of Israel doubled in its first 10 years of existence? Why would it be Israel's responsibility to bring in oppressed peoples' anyways? And why did they stop after that point?

Jav, it’s historical fact that in 1948 there were 900,000 Jews living in Muslim countries, and that 600,000 went to Israel and 300,000 to France and the Americas. It’s also fact that Zionism wasn’t a thing amongst those populations, and that the mass exodus of Jews was generally as a result of systemic persecution. 

And let’s clarify: the fate of Palestinians in Israel is on Israel. The hundreds of thousands that have been oppressed by Jordan, Lebanon and Syria isn’t the fault of Israel.

You definitely come off as one who doesn’t think Israel has a right of existence.

>

>>>>What does Hamas have to do? 

I think that would fall under point no. 4 - stop shooting/bombing each other.<<

thank you, counselor.

bk, you are being obtuse.

Obtuse? It’s not quite as simple as not shooting each other. A shit ton has to happen for that to occur. I guess you don’t see it though.

<<< one who doesn't think Israel has no right to exist >>>

Whoa now cowboy, take a step back. In all the time I've been zoning I've never heard anyone come even remotely close to implying that. Least of all javs. The middle east situation has enough shame to go around with the powers that be, no sense falsely spreading any of that here. For being so diverse, we are a fairly decent bunch.  

> A shit ton has to happen for that to occur. I guess you don’t see it though.<

you mean the israeli state needs to obey human rights laws?

good 1st step brah.

why does the UN pass 20-21 resolutions against them ?

https://unwatch.org/2018-un-general-assembly-resolutions-singling-israel...

why does the usa block them?

this does not win hearts and minds.

Sure, and then Hamas will be chill, right?

Ever read the Covenant of the Hamas? It’s no stretch to say that they’d kill all Jews in Israel if they could, seeing as how it’s in their preamble:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)
 

Funny, all I’m saying is that it will take a concerted effort on both sides, and both need to do shit dramatically differently. Most in this thread seem to think that only Israel has to change. 

who has the $?

who has the weapons?

who has the army?

who has the land?

of COURSE the palestinians need to be cool.

why are there NO UN resolutions against the pals?

so yeah, the 1st step would be for israel to treat them like humans.

the hypocrisy that they show is staggering considering their history, no?

extremists make up hamas

extremists make up the israeli govt.

gee golly if you were treated less than human, had no resources and no recourse, i can't imagine why they would revert to extremist measures.

It’s a shit-show. Hamas mostly controls Gaza, and the PA the West Bank. Hamas and the PA are at odds. Hamas has also been taxing the living hell out of the Gazans, who are already in shambles because of the Israeli-Egyptian blockade. Hamas also gets over a billion in aid from the Gulf States, and that money goes unaccounted for. Hamas lobs rockets into Israel, and the response is rockets that kill innocent people.

The Palestinian people have been the pawns in this for decades, taking the brunt of shitty leadership and Israeli responses. Remember, Arafat had something like $7 billion in his personal offshore accounts, money that was supposed to build schools and hospitals.

i agree.

I am a disloyal Jew.

I am not loyal to a political party.
Nor will I be loyal to dictators and mad kings.
I am not loyal to walls or cages.
I am not loyal to taunts or tweets.
I am not loyal to hatred, to Jew-baiting, to the gloating connivings of white supremacy.

I am a disloyal Jew.
I am not loyal to any foreign power.
Nor to abuse of power at home.
I am not loyal to a legacy of conquest, erasure and exploitation
I am not loyal to stories that tell me whom I should hate.

I am a loyal Jew.
I am loyal to the inconveniences of kindness.
I am loyal to the dream of justice.
I am loyal to this suffering Earth
And to all life.
I am not loyal to any founding fathers.
But I am loyal to the children who will come
And to the quality of world we leave them.
I am not loyal to what America has become.
But to what America could be.
I am loyal to Emma Lazarus. To huddled masses.
To freedom and welcome,
Holiness, hope and love.

Reb Irwin Keller lives in Sonoma County California and is a student member of Ohalah, the Association of Rabbis for Jewish Renewal. Learn more about his website here.

>>> one who doesn't think Israel has no right to exist

>>Whoa now cowboy, take a step back. In all the time I've been zoning I've never heard anyone come even remotely close to implying that. 

So no one on the Zone thinks that BDS is a Palestinian-led campaign promoting various forms of boycott against Israel?  

No one one the Zone believes that BDS is promoting the delegitimization of Israel.

Got it. 

Dave, should IDF snipers face charges for maiming and killing unarmed civilians that weren't in Israel illegally. 

Can they kill unarmed civilians approaching the wall tomorrow?

Big D, supporting a boycott whose purpose is to force positive change between 2 peoples is a far cry from wanting the boycotted nation cease to exist. How the fuck do you see them the same ? Thats bonkers buddy.

This has been a good discussion.

Dave, as noted above "BDS" is not a monolithic organization.  Instead, its a loose movement of people with a wide range of views.  Certainly, there are plenty of people in that movement that do call for the destruction of Israel (I quoted them above), but there are others who just want to change Israeli policy as it relates to the treatment of the Palestinians.  I didn't see anyone on this thread who fell into the former group.   Javs was pretty passionate about the historical treatment of Palestinians by Israel, but he also expressly disclaimed calls by some in the BDS movement for the elimination of the Jewish state. 

Slack, because you keep bringing up the subject of snipers on the border with Gaza, I will say its a bullshit tactic.  I fully understand the Israeli government's concerns, especially considering there is no shortage of folks in Gaza who would love nothing better to slip across the fence, head to the nearest town or kibbutz, and murder every man, woman, and child they can find.  Its happened too many times and border security is a very legitimate and serious concern.  But shooting unarmed protesters is never cool.  The Israelis can instead don riot gear and go down there and deal with the unarmed types mano y mano, rather than shooting them from a distance.  I also note that in the PBS story you posted, they mentioned how folks in Gaza prod little kids to approach the border knowing they could be hurt.  That's bullshit too.

But what this thread really lacks is Roger Waters getting stuck in a Hamas infiltration tunnel. 

While I don’t agree with all of Tom Friedman:’s opinions, IMHO what he writes below is true.  YMMV.

"I am not a B.D.S. supporter. The movement’s main website says that it “does not advocate for a particular solution to the conflict and does not call for either a ‘one state solution’ or a ‘two state solution.’” Rather, it calls for ending the Israeli “occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall, recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality” and “respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.”

By being specific about the rights of Palestinians to return to their home and not unequivocally committing to a two-state solution, the movement leaves me and many others to believe that B.D.S. is just code for getting rid of the state of Israel. I do not believe in passing laws against B.D.S. — people can boycott whomever they want — but I do believe it is not a helpful movement at all." 

BK: Ha! I laugh in the face of your feeble attempt to drag the conversation down into simplistic baiting. I don't believe in the existence of Israel any more or less than I do the majority of nation-states, including the USA and Chile. Most modern nation-states were founded on bloodthirsty war. We sugar coat it over time and turn it into stories of patriots and whatnot, but war is war is war. I have no quarrel with Israel as a country and certainly not with Jewish people. I really dig all religions a lot and have studied them a good bit. Judaism is fascinating to me on many levels. I don't dig on any kind of person who pushes their excessive and unmerited weight around to routinely and deeply violate the dignity of an entire group of human beings to pursue their ethically questionable actions (like constantly expanding settlements into territories that clearly don't belong to you and doing so in a systematic manner that isolates Palestinian groups from each other creating the conditions for economic and cultural attrition). 

By the way, when this same topic was discussed years ago on here, it was Duke who brought up the argument that no country is founded on any real sort of legitimacy other than the brute force used to push its weight around and establish itself. Duke was good conversationalist, for sure.

Dave - I think the statement you posted is open enough that any interpretation you give ultimately just speaks to your bias because it is pretty ambiguous. I will agree with you though that a clear rejection of a one-state solution would make the BDS goal or objective a much cleaner political and economic movement. However, the four points that you quoted as to what they call for, all sound like reasonable initial negotiation points, to me. As in, starting from there and working towards a middle in the direction of the Israeli starting points, maybe something could be found in the middle.

Sadly though, I think this whole process is doomed for one reason: Jerusalem. Israel is not going to agree to anything that takes any control over Jerusalem away from them. Years ago on the Zone (same conversation?), someone suggested that Jerusalem should be like a World Heritage Site managed in equal parts by the Israeli and Palestinian populations, or something like that. I still think it's a great idea but Israel will never go for anything other than absolute control of Jerusalem. And THAT is a purely religious/cultural imperative...IMO.

I never really understood why Jerusalem is such a big hang up on the peace process.  Can't everyone agree that Israel can have its capital in West Jerusalem and Palestine have its in East Jerusalem?    That assumes the boundaries are drawn to give Palestinians easy access to East Jerusalem.

The last time Israel elected a progressive he was assassinated.

Sorry Jav, I really wasn’t trying to bait you.

Amazingly, Trump’s stance on and decisions about Israel, which are abhorrent to most of us, have nothing to do with AIPAC or American Jews. They have  everything to do with him jerking off his base, the Evangelical Christians. He’s pushing their Israel agenda. They don’t give a shit about the Palestinians, or Jews for that matter. Bibi is doing his bidding, and it’s going to take decades to undo the damage.

Do a Google search to “evangelical support of Israel.” It’s startling, and the amount of financial support they give to Bibi is sick. This is also a big reason why Jerusalem is off the table. 

Check out this Pew Research data. 42% of Jews think that Trump favors Israel to much, and only 12% of Evangelicals do. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/06/u-s-jews-are-more-likel...

No worries, Brian, I enjoy these conversations with you and all the kind folk here who take the time to participate intelligently. :)

Agreed on the Evangelicals, though I think there's much more to it than that. The billions in aid are a huge driver of the war-machine-economy. Not to mention the strategic positioning in the Mid-East, ports to Mediterranean, likely there's a refinery or two, close access to the Straits of Bosphorus, etc...

There are an obscene number of factors going on over there. For such a small and seemingly  inconsequential piece of desert, it has a lot of consequences. That’s why I have a hard time with, “Israel needs to do this or that,” or, “they need to stop shooting.” It will take much more than just Israel changing, and stopping shooting is an end. How to get there, amid all the opposing factors, is the problem with zero solution.

 "Roger Waters Us + Them - A film by Sean Evans and Roger Waters - October 2 & 6 in cinemas worldwide" 

https://youtu.be/VJsaR7yJHf4

Simple solution is to grant Israeli citizenship and equal rights to those living in the occupied territories. 

Sounds like your plan is pretty convenient for Israel, Nancy, but it also sounds like it totally usurps the Palestinians right to self-governance, not to mention their right to maintain their own self-determined cultural and ethnic identity. Simple, in this case, has nothing to do with fair or just. 

Good recap of the last few days.  It's so embarrassing this guy is running our country.

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/22/20827949/trump-chosen-one-greenland-bizarr...

Convenient for Israel? Lol. Before dismissing it maybe there should be a vote by those living in the occupied territories. I suspect most would more than happy to have the same rights as Israeli citizens. The reality is that Israel isn’t going to agree to giving up the occupied territory- so forget about a 2 state solution and likely won’t even consider a simple solution of granting them citizenship. 

Trump and MoscowMitch are Running our country into the ground

America's #1 Jew Howard Stern had the solution long ago.  When he was a local jock on wccc hartford, he had the early morning drive to work slot, and one day on the way to work in one of his rants on the Israel Palestinian situation he just blurts out, " they'll never get it settled over there, let's just make Baja Mexico the new country of Israel. I tell you the Jews would love it, its just like home, mostly sand, but with more beaches". Laughed so hard I pissed myself. That may be the funniest thing I've ever heard him say. 

Then we could have the Middle East right next door.

Cabo San Lucas is now Challah San Latkes

Latest from the wall:

Here is a recent news story on how evangelical Christians are far more supportive of Israeli policy than American Jew are:

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/25/753720351/as-u-s-jews-cool-to-israel-evan...

For example, it mentions how 42% of US Jews say Trump "favors the Israelis too much," while just 15% of U.S. evangelicals agreed with that statement.

Speaking of Israel, the IDF has been on a tear over the weekend, bombing in a single day Iranians and their allies in three separate countries (Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq) plus a few Hamas targets in Gaza for good measure.

According to the story:

"80% of the surveyed evangelicals believe that the modern rebirth of Israel and the return of millions of Jews to that land are a fulfillment of Bible prophecy and show 'we are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ.' Some evangelicals say that prophecy includes a belief in a final battle of Armageddon that concludes with Jews accepting Jesus Christ as their savior."

What’s unfortunate is that less than 60% of the population votes. If more did vote, these religious whack jobs would have barely any clout. The apathetic are the problem.

Ken,  check out the Pew Research link I posted above. It has the raw data from the article you posted, plus a ton more.  Very interesting.

There’s enough unfortunate to go around, and enough space for it all.

Speaking of unfortunate; between Bibi, the PLO and Hamas, the  aspirations of the people living in the countries they lead seem to not be in the best hands.

So us, about that whole Israel being a secular state thing....

Netanyahu says he will extend ‘Jewish sovereignty’ to all West Bank settlements

“There will be no more Gush Katif, there will be no more displacements, and with the help of God we will apply Jewish sovereignty to all communities, as part of the Land of Israel, and as part of the State of Israel,” Netanyahu said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-he-will-extend-jewish-sover...

Javs, is your issue that Israel is a “Jewish State” or that Bibi wants to apply sovereignty to occupied territories?

I just want to know what this "Jewish Sovereignty" business is all about. I keep hearing throughout the years from people about how Israel is a country where all religions coexist with equal rights and participation and then Bibi goes and makes a statement like that. Is it a Freudian slip? Government policy? Is the sovereignty of Israel exclusively a sovereignty of Jewish people?

Does that really just seem like a light-hearted wording, in the middle of a declaration where Bibi is saying that the settlements are Israeli, Israel will not listen to any nonsense from the Palestinians about the legality or illegality of it all. And why? Because it's Jewish sovereignty! 

Weird, right?

Well, Israel is the “Jewish homeland.” In recent years the Supreme Court has passed judgements that create more equality for Muslim citizens. For instance, military service guarantees certain rights of citizenship. Although Arab Israelis don’t have mandatory conscription, they are now allowed to serve, and over 3,000 do. It’s a tough one. How can there be a Jewish State that gives equal freedoms to other religions? They aren’t great at it, but they do a hell of a lot better than the many of Muslim countries in the region.

Taking what Bibi says as “gospel” is pretty much like calling Trump the voice of America. That fuckwad sure as hell doesn’t represent my opinions.

Are all these "new" Israelis going to be able to vote?

I appreciate some peoples attempt to have a rational discussion here.  Ken is 100% correct when he says that "Taking what Bibi says as “gospel” is pretty much like calling Trump the voice of America."  Bibi is desperate to win the upcoming election.  In what is seen as a dramatic, last-minute attempt to energize far-right voters and thus tip the scales in his favor, Netanyahu announced that, if elected, he would annex large parts of the West Bank. 

My personal hope is that Bibi loses the upcoming election, but it is the voting citizens of Israel's who get to decide.  The same way it is the Palestinians decision to vote for Hamas to represent them.  IMHO there are people on both sides that are preventing a just peace. After the 1967 war (when the boarders were extended) the hope was that Israel could trade land for peace.  That worked with Egypt and some other neighbors.  With others, giving land back has resulted on rockets being fired at Israel from closer range.  

Question for Javs.  Do the Jewish people who live in the middle east have a right to have a country at all?  Do you believe that a negotiated two state solution is worth pursuing?  As previously stated, IMHO with different leadership on both sides, perhaps peace can be achieved.  

Hmmmm....some interesting ideas.

First, while I understand that from an internal perspective, taking Bibi or Trump's voice as gospel, or the voice of a nation may be uninformed, however, in the rest of the world, when we hear America speak, we hear Trump. When we hear Israel speak, we hear Bibi. No one in Chile has any clue what any other American politician or representative says because they just don't get the airtime. So in other words, when Trump speaks, he may be questioned within the US, but outside no one doubts that he speaks for the USA. For example, when he spouts off nonsense about buying Greenland, now the entire world is aware of the fact that the USA is heavily interested in gaining a strategic foothold in the Arctic. That much is undeniable and I would bet we will hear considerably more about this in the near future. So yeah, from an outsider's perspective, when Bibi makes these declarations in the international press, he's making a strong statement about what lengths Israel will go to to totally ignore and run over the needs of the Palestinians, and marks it all in the framework of 'Jewish' sovereignty, making it clear that Muslim people have no space in that room.

In my mind there is no such thing as Jewish sovereignty, as there is no such thing as Christian, Buddhist or Muslim sovereignty. Anyway you cut it, the definition of sovereignty implies that that particular group of people has power over the whole. The sovereignty of a nation implies that it is free from the pressures and demands of other nations and has absolute power to make decisions without considering the needs of other countries. If you say Jewish sovereignty, you necessarily imply that Jewish people have supreme power or authority over other religions. 

Dictionary.com - sovereignty:

the quality or state of being sovereign, or of having supreme power or authority.

the status, dominion, power, or authority of a sovereign;royal rank or position; royalty.

supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community.

rightful status, independence, or prerogative.

a sovereign or independent state, community, or political unit.

Dave, as for your questions as to whether I believe Jews in the Middle East have a right to a country, I already partially answered that question above. First, no country really has any right to exist. Countries are born out of bloodshed and violence for the most part. You don't have a right to exist - you beat your neighbors into submission until they stop questioning your right to exist. In that sense, no, I don't think Israel has any more right to exist than any other nation.

As for "Do the Jewish people have a right to a nation?", why should anyone particular religious group have a nation? Do Christians have a right to have a Christian nation? Should Thai Buddhists go to India and demand a Buddhist homeland? Should Muslims have the right to create nations exclusively for Muslims? So no, I don't think they have that right, sorry. I don't support theocratic governments, not of any ilk, and if religion is the binding glue of your national project than you can expect to have a weak foundation which will sooner or later crumble as people abandon those religious beliefs. 

Now, do the people of Israel, as it exists today, have the right to live in peace and tranquillity, with food and education for their children? Of course, they do. Just like the Palestinians. Does Bibi have the right to declare that illegal Israeli settlements are now protected under the magical umbrella of "Jewish sovereignty"? No. Not even a bit. Fuck that guy and fuck Israel's never-ending thirst for expansion and for eradicating the Palestinians. 

If you’re going to make the very bold claim that Israel is “eradicating the Palestinians,” you really should have some data to back it up. Sure, the kill rate is uneven, but they sure as hell aren’t eradicating them. If they truly wanted to, they would. Let’s see your compelling data.

Take a look at flags of the world. Most of Europe has crosses on their flags. Most of the Middle East has Muslim symbols. It’s the world we live in. As a Christian, living in a predominately Christian country, I’m sure that you don’t even notice it. Most non Christians  do. I know that you disagree with the fact that 900,000 Jews were forced out of Muslim countries, but the  fact remains. Jews have been forcibly removed from European nations throughout history. So, if one little sliver of the world has a Jewish symbol on the flag, a place Jews can go when the shit hits the fan, good.

How to make it work with the Palestinians is a different question.

So Javs, if I understand your position U believe that the solution is to have zero states.

The  Ships of State sail on mirage
but drown in sand
in No-Man's Land

Since I’m quoting some band that started playing in the 60’s, let’s continue:

They lie where they fall 
There's nothing more to say 
The desert stars are bright tonight, 
let's meet as friends 
The flower of Islam 
The fruit of Abraham

The thousand stories have
come round to one again 
Arabian Night
our gods pursue their fight
What fatal flowers of
darkness spring from
seeds of light

Bird of Paradise - Fly
In white sky
Blues for ALLAH
In'sh'ALLAH

Let's see with our heart 
these things our eyes have seen
and know the truth will still lie
somewhere in between

Under eternity
Under eternity
Under eternity
Blue
Bird of Paradise
Fly
In white sky
Under eternity
Blues
for ALLAH
In'sh'ALLAH 

Dave, do you want IDF to stop shooting unarmed Palestinians or do you think shooting them is Israel's right?

I wrote something ,awhile ago.

Was flaberorgasted by the ill posting by the originatotor of this thread.

Sad,the underlying hate.

Whatever happened to Peace & Love?

If not that,

Take some deep breathes Mr Buckmaster from 

Wisconsin, and perhaps let your ugly thoughts of Any People of faith people

pass you by.

It's more likely that your fate will be met by:

1 Auto accident

2.Cancer

3,Domestic dispute

Whatever your challenge,this thread is what my Late Bart would say to me and never post (he had better manners in public)

 "This is fucked up arragance "

Wishing injury and or death to Bucky who mocked Donald Trump's ridiculous statement goes counter to your wish of peace and love, and is just a really nasty thing to say.   You took this entire thread out of context. 

Mr Jeff, I never wished Bucky or ANYONE injury or death!

I only suggested that this hateful ranting is breeding more discourse.

Peace ,

over and out

Some rather infrequent zoners tend to miss the nuances of actually reading the OP, reading just the thread title and go nuts over ass overboard with extremely unkind accusations nonetheless. This used to occur regularly in the early 2000's with noobs, but most of us have become familiar with the internet and how message boards work since then.