I think we need some forensic analysis of the video. It's not as simple as a 13 yo with his hands up shot dead. He may have been tossing the gun as he was raising his hands and in that split second at 2:30 am in an alley in Chicago the officer saw the gun and fired.
The other hangs with white Supremacists, had his hands up after actually discharging and carrying the murder weapon. And wasn't even arrested at the scene. So clearly it doesn't matter if a kid is armed or not.
I have also have met some cops through my work who are good people trying to actually "serve and protect".
When I think of them and their families, I recognize the difficulty they face during violent conflicts, and their desire to stay alive.
In the case of Kyle, their bias and tunnel vision caused them to drive right past him.
In the case of Adam, bias, fear, and survival instincts combined to produce a violent outcome. The victim was only 13 but had gunshot residue on his hand.
Again, I am not condoning police violence but wondering if the cop saw a gun in his hand and reacted quickly. I watched the video and I don't see a clear call in this case.
I think the evidence needs to be reviewed before calling it an execution.
>In the case of Adam, bias, fear, and survival instincts combined to produce a violent outcome. The victim was only 13 but had gunshot residue on his hand.
In the case of Kyle? Gun residue?
if Adam were a white 13 year old ya think anything would be different.
>>>Again, I am not condoning police violence but wondering if the cop saw a gun in his hand and reacted quickly.<<<
Yes, police are most certainly trained to be in fear. In fact, police training pretty much dictates all roads eventually lead to fear. This is usually what justifies violence, not actual threats. In a personal conversation, policemen will tell you they "risk their lives everyday". Tell me here where was the risk taken? Or was it merely risk avoidance?
But those who feel the continued need to keep hair-splitting every nuance of these encounters have never been focused on affecting change.
This continues to be about the unspoken requirement of the police to continue to be allowed to murder without oversight or actual accountability. It's about cops getting the benefit of ten doubts and their victims getting none. It's about maintaining the unwritten demand that only the police are fit to investigate the police, and their ability to continue to operate as separate, autonomous, insulated, militarized bodies from the communities they are sworn to protect.
If you didn't understand after Sandra Bland, George Floyd, Freddie Gray, or so many others, why would Adam Toledo's murder be any different?
Nancy-I agree. People of color are victimized by the police at a disproportionate rate.
Bss - I agree. The problem is systemic. Change is needed.
I think the risk taken in this situation was responding to shots fired, chasing a potentially armed suspect, and then having to make a split second decision to use deadly force.
I think it's tragic that Adam is dead. If the police had created a perimeter and searched with dogs the outcome would probably have been different.
I'm not trying to justify violence, just saying that I see the human side of police work.
Something else to be considered is the question of why 13 year old Adam was on the street in the wee hours with a gun.
About 25 years ago, I worked in a group home in the Chicago area where most of the residents were young Black and Latino males that came to us by way of the child welfare system. Many of them were Gangster Disciples and Latin Kings who had been working the streets armed and slinging dope by the time they were 11 or 12 years old. They did this because that's what the world they lived in had provided for them.
These killings are really just a symptom of the larger problem of systemic racism.
Without commenting on what happened to Toledo was right, wrong, justified or not, I think that it's a bit off to compare the situation to that of Floyd, Bland or Gray. It's also kind of weird to judge people who are objectively questioning the facts of the unique situation as "not getting it."
And the whole Rittenhouse thing...what a fucking mess.
think the risk taken in this situation was responding to shots fired, chasing a potentially armed suspect, and then having to make a split second decision to use deadly force.
<<<
That's all response to internal stimulus though. Gunshots from the past can't hit you. The rest is just cop speak. (That's not a personal attack. Respect. I believe as Americans we have been socially conditioned to respond in this way).
But what was the actual threat presented that required deadly force? There wasn't one. As in - didn't exist.
Yeah, the kid should have probably been home asleep. They'll kill you at home and get away with it too though...
Morning Bk. Its not "off" to make those comparisons. Like trailhead correctly stated the problem is systemic. If anything it's "off" to invoke that other kid here.
And on the flip side, the economic social disparity also puts our law enforcement in the fucked position of having to deal with this shit. I feel bad for the cop too,, who tf wants to chase anybody, let alone a possibly armed gang banger down an alley at 2:30 am.
13,,, great parenting too, just fuckin wonderful,,, fucked situation from top to bottom.
Raz, many, if not most, of the kids I worked with didn't have dads living in the home, and often had moms who were strung out or incarcerated. Even if they lived with relatives, like grandparents, there was often just one adult in the house. They live their lives in crisis, until a rival gang member, or a cop, kills them.
“The last chapter in any successful genocide is the one in which the oppressor can remove their hands and say, ‘My God, what are these people doing to themselves? They’re killing each other."
Bss, we have more agreement than not. The underlying social issues are the stage by which it's all set. That being said, I'm trying to wrap my head around passing a fake bill vs selling single cigs vs driving while being Black vs running with a gun after shots fired.
In Vermont, the average salary for a Black person is just under $20k. For Whites it's about $34K. The average Black is more educated than the average White. The disparity is attributed to inherent bias. People of color are simply not considered for jobs.
A black male in Vermont has a 7x higher chance of being pulled over.
Per capita income for Black Vermonters is less than $19,000 a year, according to data analyzed by Seguino, about half what it is for white residents. And nearly 25% of Black Vermonters live below the federal poverty line, more than double the poverty rate of white people.
“Marginalized groups are excluded from the prized jobs with good benefits and good pay,” Seguino said. “We see that [in the state workforce], we see it in the Vermont economy as well.”
Seguino says those disparities are not a product of differences in education. Black Vermonters, for instance, are more likely than white Vermonters to have a bachelor’s degree.
“That would be one justifiable explanation, if you will, is if people don’t have the skills for the higher-wage jobs,” Seguino said. “But the data are not telling us that. They’re telling us that actually, that education cannot explain these disparities.”
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: treat island judit
on Thursday, April 15, 2021 – 09:29 pm
Where was this?
So wrong. Link to where, when?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call" Knotesau
on Thursday, April 15, 2021 – 09:30 pm
Lil' homicide.
Lil' homicide.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Johnny D skudebro
on Thursday, April 15, 2021 – 09:35 pm
I'm shaking my head...
I'm shaking my head...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Johnny D skudebro
on Thursday, April 15, 2021 – 09:36 pm
This is where I saw it:
This is where I saw it:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/us/adam-toledo-police-shooting-body-camer...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote Stringtwang
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 10:00 am
I think we need some forensic
I think we need some forensic analysis of the video. It's not as simple as a 13 yo with his hands up shot dead. He may have been tossing the gun as he was raising his hands and in that split second at 2:30 am in an alley in Chicago the officer saw the gun and fired.
Too many guns.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: That’s Nancy with the laughin’ face Nancyinthesky
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 10:18 am
What the difference between
What's the difference between Adam and Kyle?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call" Knotesau
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 10:52 am
One of them hung out with
One of them hung out with latin kings and got shot.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: That’s Nancy with the laughin’ face Nancyinthesky
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:25 am
The other hangs with white
The other hangs with white Supremacists, had his hands up after actually discharging and carrying the murder weapon. And wasn't even arrested at the scene. So clearly it doesn't matter if a kid is armed or not.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/16/us-police-officers-publi...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:27 am
And, of course, Kyle paraded
And, of course, Kyle paraded down a street with a long gun during a riot, and the cops didn't bat an eye.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote Stringtwang
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:30 am
I recognize systemic racism
I recognize systemic racism and bad police work.
I have also have met some cops through my work who are good people trying to actually "serve and protect".
When I think of them and their families, I recognize the difficulty they face during violent conflicts, and their desire to stay alive.
In the case of Kyle, their bias and tunnel vision caused them to drive right past him.
In the case of Adam, bias, fear, and survival instincts combined to produce a violent outcome. The victim was only 13 but had gunshot residue on his hand.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:31 am
> The victim was only 13 but
> The victim was only 13 but had gunshot residue on his hand.
That's no justification for summary execution. They shot him in the chest.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf Bss
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:35 am
Stringtwang coming in hot
Damn.
Stringtwang coming in hot with the both sides-ism.
RIP Adam Toledo.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote Stringtwang
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:39 am
Again, I am not condoning
Again, I am not condoning police violence but wondering if the cop saw a gun in his hand and reacted quickly. I watched the video and I don't see a clear call in this case.
I think the evidence needs to be reviewed before calling it an execution.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: That’s Nancy with the laughin’ face Nancyinthesky
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 11:39 am
>In the case of Adam, bias,
>In the case of Adam, bias, fear, and survival instincts combined to produce a violent outcome. The victim was only 13 but had gunshot residue on his hand.
In the case of Kyle? Gun residue?
if Adam were a white 13 year old ya think anything would be different.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf Bss
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:01 pm
Those who feel the continued
>>>Again, I am not condoning police violence but wondering if the cop saw a gun in his hand and reacted quickly.<<<
Yes, police are most certainly trained to be in fear. In fact, police training pretty much dictates all roads eventually lead to fear. This is usually what justifies violence, not actual threats. In a personal conversation, policemen will tell you they "risk their lives everyday". Tell me here where was the risk taken? Or was it merely risk avoidance?
But those who feel the continued need to keep hair-splitting every nuance of these encounters have never been focused on affecting change.
This continues to be about the unspoken requirement of the police to continue to be allowed to murder without oversight or actual accountability. It's about cops getting the benefit of ten doubts and their victims getting none. It's about maintaining the unwritten demand that only the police are fit to investigate the police, and their ability to continue to operate as separate, autonomous, insulated, militarized bodies from the communities they are sworn to protect.
If you didn't understand after Sandra Bland, George Floyd, Freddie Gray, or so many others, why would Adam Toledo's murder be any different?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: aiq aiq
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:26 pm
Brown boy, underage with
Brown boy, underage with illegal gun, complies with police order, murdered.
White boy, underage and with an illegal gun, kills two and is not.
Funny, that Free as Fuck graphic on the t shirt would be a perfect target.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Highnote Stringtwang
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:36 pm
Bss - I agree. The problem is
Nancy-I agree. People of color are victimized by the police at a disproportionate rate.
Bss - I agree. The problem is systemic. Change is needed.
I think the risk taken in this situation was responding to shots fired, chasing a potentially armed suspect, and then having to make a split second decision to use deadly force.
I think it's tragic that Adam is dead. If the police had created a perimeter and searched with dogs the outcome would probably have been different.
I'm not trying to justify violence, just saying that I see the human side of police work.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:40 pm
Something else to be
Something else to be considered is the question of why 13 year old Adam was on the street in the wee hours with a gun.
About 25 years ago, I worked in a group home in the Chicago area where most of the residents were young Black and Latino males that came to us by way of the child welfare system. Many of them were Gangster Disciples and Latin Kings who had been working the streets armed and slinging dope by the time they were 11 or 12 years old. They did this because that's what the world they lived in had provided for them.
These killings are really just a symptom of the larger problem of systemic racism.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank Briank
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:48 pm
Without commenting on what
Without commenting on what happened to Toledo was right, wrong, justified or not, I think that it's a bit off to compare the situation to that of Floyd, Bland or Gray. It's also kind of weird to judge people who are objectively questioning the facts of the unique situation as "not getting it."
And the whole Rittenhouse thing...what a fucking mess.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf Bss
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:54 pm
>>>
>>>
think the risk taken in this situation was responding to shots fired, chasing a potentially armed suspect, and then having to make a split second decision to use deadly force.
<<<
That's all response to internal stimulus though. Gunshots from the past can't hit you. The rest is just cop speak. (That's not a personal attack. Respect. I believe as Americans we have been socially conditioned to respond in this way).
But what was the actual threat presented that required deadly force? There wasn't one. As in - didn't exist.
Yeah, the kid should have probably been home asleep. They'll kill you at home and get away with it too though...
Morning Bk. Its not "off" to make those comparisons. Like trailhead correctly stated the problem is systemic. If anything it's "off" to invoke that other kid here.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 12:59 pm
> If anything it's "off" to
> If anything it's "off" to invoke that other kid here
Meaning Kyle? It's a valid contrasting point, I'd say.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Rasputin O'Leary Rasmataz
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:01 pm
Agree w/ mikee 100%
Agree w/ mikee 100%
And on the flip side, the economic social disparity also puts our law enforcement in the fucked position of having to deal with this shit. I feel bad for the cop too,, who tf wants to chase anybody, let alone a possibly armed gang banger down an alley at 2:30 am.
13,,, great parenting too, just fuckin wonderful,,, fucked situation from top to bottom.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:08 pm
Raz, many, if not most, of
Raz, many, if not most, of the kids I worked with didn't have dads living in the home, and often had moms who were strung out or incarcerated. Even if they lived with relatives, like grandparents, there was often just one adult in the house. They live their lives in crisis, until a rival gang member, or a cop, kills them.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Mice elf Bss
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:13 pm
Damn. Reminds me of a quote
Damn. Reminds me of a quote
“The last chapter in any successful genocide is the one in which the oppressor can remove their hands and say, ‘My God, what are these people doing to themselves? They’re killing each other."
Aaron Huey
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: treat island judit
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:21 pm
>>> They live their lives in
This is so sad, and so real. >>> They live their lives in crisis <<<
And guns. So fucked up.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank Briank
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:27 pm
Bss, we have more agreement
Bss, we have more agreement than not. The underlying social issues are the stage by which it's all set. That being said, I'm trying to wrap my head around passing a fake bill vs selling single cigs vs driving while being Black vs running with a gun after shots fired.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:30 pm
You forgot having an air
You forgot having an air freshener hanging from the rearview mirror, BK.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank Briank
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:36 pm
How about these fucked up
How about these fucked up stats:
In Vermont, the average salary for a Black person is just under $20k. For Whites it's about $34K. The average Black is more educated than the average White. The disparity is attributed to inherent bias. People of color are simply not considered for jobs.
A black male in Vermont has a 7x higher chance of being pulled over.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 01:46 pm
> The average Black is more
> The average Black is more educated than the average White.
Is that correct? And, if so, how does that happen? I don't doubt you, BK, but it seems kind of counterintuitive.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Johnny D skudebro
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 04:39 pm
^Based on income bracket?
^Based on income bracket?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank Briank
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 05:40 pm
It was all over the news a
It was all over the news a month or so ago, but I can't seem to find a link. I'll delve in and try to give details.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Briank Briank
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 05:46 pm
https://www.vpr.org/post
https://www.vpr.org/post/difference-treatment-data-show-continued-racial...
Per capita income for Black Vermonters is less than $19,000 a year, according to data analyzed by Seguino, about half what it is for white residents. And nearly 25% of Black Vermonters live below the federal poverty line, more than double the poverty rate of white people.
“Marginalized groups are excluded from the prized jobs with good benefits and good pay,” Seguino said. “We see that [in the state workforce], we see it in the Vermont economy as well.”
Seguino says those disparities are not a product of differences in education. Black Vermonters, for instance, are more likely than white Vermonters to have a bachelor’s degree.
“That would be one justifiable explanation, if you will, is if people don’t have the skills for the higher-wage jobs,” Seguino said. “But the data are not telling us that. They’re telling us that actually, that education cannot explain these disparities.”
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call" Knotesau
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 05:52 pm
We need to kill each other
We need to kill each other over prized jobs.
Service workers are leaching off the middle class.
Gentrify
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nevermind mikeedwardsetc
on Friday, April 16, 2021 – 06:44 pm
> We need to kill each other
> We need to kill each other over prized jobs.
Gladiator style?