The Hamas And The Papas

Fail

A weak pun, but it's hard to escape all the bad news. War sucks. It creates muti-generational traumas that sets us all back a bit.

Peace is better, when you can find it. In L.A., sometimes. It's safe and warm there, I hear.

Such irony.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Warsaw-Ghetto-Uprising

^ The threatened and oppressed become the threat and oppressors?  The whole thing is so messed up and horrible.

FREE PALESTINE

So the IDF didn't find a Dr. No style secret headquarters under the hospital after all?   Well, at least fuel and medical supplies can now start being shipped in.

>>>So the IDF didn't find a Dr. No style secret headquarters under the hospital after all?<<<
 

If you can believe your eyes and ears...

From a paywalled article on TPM

National Students for Justice in Palestine is the national umbrella group which supports and coordinates messaging for over 200 Students for Justice in Palestine campus groups across North America. 

On the day after the October 7th attacks, the organization issued this statement as either their first or one of their first statements on the massacres in southern Israel.

“Today, we witness a historic win for the Palestinian resistance: across land, air, and sea, our people have broken down the artificial barriers of the Zionist entity, taking with it the facade of an impenetrable settler colony and reminding each of us that total return and liberation to Palestine is near. Catching the enemy completely by surprise, the Palestinian resistance has captured over a dozen settlements surrounding Gaza along with many occupation soldiers and military vehicles. This is what it means to Free Palestine: not just slogans and rallies, but armed confrontation with the oppressors.”

A couple days later the group released a tool kit for holding demonstrations and protests around the US. That toolkit included the following statements among others …

“On the 50th anniversary of the 1973 war, the resistance in Gaza launched a surprise operation against the Zionist enemy which disrupted the very foundation of Zionist settler society. On the morning of October 8th, the Palestinian resistance stormed the illegitimate border fence, gaining control of the Gaza checkpoint at Erez, and re-entering 1948 Palestine.”

A central message of the document is that all of the Israeli state is made up of occupied territory and that all residents of Israel are “settlers.” It goes on to argue that no Israeli civilians have protections as civilians since all are in fact “military assets.” “Settlers are not ‘civilians’ in the sense of international law, because they are military assets used to ensure continued control over stolen Palestinian land. Responsibility for every single death falls solely on the zionist entity.”

A few days after the October 7th attacks I saw a tenured professor at Yale explicitly endorse this argument that no citizen of Israel can be considered a civilian or be entitled to the protections accorded to civilians in wartime.

Another quotation …

Liberation is not an abstract concept. It is not a moment circumscribed to a revolutionary past as it is often characterized. Rather, liberating colonized land is a real process that requires confrontation by any means necessary. In essence, decolonization is a call to action, a commitment to the restoration of Indigenous sovereignty. It calls upon us to engage in meaningful actions that go beyond symbolism and rhetoric. Resistance comes in all forms— armed struggle, general strikes, and popular demonstrations. All of it is legitimate, and all of it is necessary.  

Settlers are already fleeing the land, their ‘dedication’ to the settler colony is easily broken. The dedication of Palestianians for their national liberation is unshakable...

...It’s hard not to ask: if this is the framework, what possible logic could there be to Israel ever agreeing to a ceasefire? Who agrees to a ceasefire in a battle in which the enemy’s aims are existential?

"Zionism is racism"- United Nations resolution 1975. Peace now, God Fucking Damn it.

So all the Jews need to leave Israel so that people who rape and murder their own women for not wearing head scarfs can take over. People who kill girls whose crime is going to school to learn to read and write.

But that will only happen after the bloody war between Hezbollah and Hamas that will partition Israel into North Palestine and South Palestine. Once that settles down they will start launching rockets into Egypt, Syria, and Jordan while they get back to killing each other who is Shia, Sunni, and Druz. 

In that war I'll stand by the racists Zionists. 

So all the Jews need to leave Israel so that people who rape and murder their own women for not wearing head scarfs can take over.

these issues will not be solved via violence or settler colonialism. what is the end game here? destroy hamas? what happens after that? do you think once hamas is gone that violent extremist groups in palestine will just be over? then what? destroy all fundamentalist muslims? all arabs? 

all these wars will do is create the next hamas, just like how ISIS grew out of al-queda in the power vaccum created by US actions in iraq, syria and afghanistan.

in a way, yes, i do want people who oppress women and gays to have their own state and not be attacked by colonial powers, because thats the only way things will change. western society used to do all the same stuff, and changed very slowly over time due to a huge variety of influences to arrive at where we are now concerning human rights. its really unfortunate, but i do not see another path outside of simply giving the middle east time and space to do the same, free from the colonial influence of western powers. continuing to try and push the issue via violence and military action will only prolong the issue and provide more fodder for radicalization. 

That is at least an honest answer, but if your starting point is Israel has to go for whatever reason, and just to be clear using the colonist frame for Israel weakens the very real colonist frame for most of the world, you are inviting endless war. They aren't going anywhere and if unleashed from Western constraint/funding will go medieval on their neighborhood. 

Acknowledging reality is not inviting "endless war"

it's just acknowledging reality

>This is a heartbreaking post from a Canadian University Professor who teaches biblical studies at Carleton University in Ottawa, in Canada.
Hope it inspires improved education, critical thinking and less hate.
-----
Dear Students,
I have spent the last 25 years showing you the beauty of all of the literary, cultural, philosophical, and artistic heights of the human spirit over the course of human history. Teaching you has been the most wonderful and satisfying of callings. I never wanted to do anything other than meet with you, discuss ideas with you, discover and rediscover human insights, truths, and wonders. I never regretted my career path, never hated my job, and never doubted my legacy. I felt privileged and honoured to show you how to analyse, to think critically, to weigh evidence, and to understand people and ideas, contexts and complexity, deeply and thoroughly. I thought my work was helping to make the world a better, more humane, more thoughtful place.
You have broken my heart. No: shattered it, irreparably. I don’t know how I will ever set foot in a classroom again. I don’t know how I will ever see you the same way. I know now that I was deluding myself that I ever had any impact, would ever leave any positive legacy, that my work ever made any difference.
I watch you all on social media, in the streets and the quads, marching in solidarity with a movement that seeks only to wipe me out. To exterminate me, my children, my parents, my entire family and community. I know, some of you think you’re trying to help the oppressed. You think that my kind is the white colonialist racist kind that you hate. But I thought I taught you how to evaluate arguments. I thought I taught you the importance of understanding context, both historical and rhetorical. I thought that I taught you that the world did not operate according to dichotomies, like black and white, oppressor and oppressed, villain and victim. I thought I taught you about complexity, about judgment, and to examine your sources and not to take anyone’s statements at face value.
Zionism is the Jewish right to self-determination in our ancestral homeland. Israel is that ancestral homeland. Jews are the indigenous peoples of that land; not the only indigenous peoples of that land, to be sure. But Israel is the only land to which we are indigenous. After 2000 years of longing, the result of the Holocaust – a Nazi movement which sought to ethnically cleanse the world of Jews by systematically exterminating us – was that the international community granted us a sliver of that ancestral homeland. It was to be shared, partitioned into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Arabs rejected the partition and attacked the Jews when they declared the state of Israel in 1948. The Jews won. Arabs who remained in Israel became citizens with full rights and freedoms. 20% of Israel’s population today is Arab. They fight in the army, they are doctors, lawyers, members of Parliament and supreme court judges. There is no apartheid. Israel’s Jewish population consists of Jews from Arab lands, whose parents or grandparents were kicked out when the state of Israel was formed, and of descendants of refugees from Eastern Europe, Holocaust survivors who had no homes to return to. Some are more recent refugees from Europe, Russia, and the Americas who either returned to Israel for religious reasons or because the Jew-hatred in their communities grew too excessive and they decided to emigrate, to head for the one place in the world Jews can go if their neighbours or governments turn against them.
The West Bank and Gaza strip – along with refugee camps that still exist in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan -- were the places that the Arab nations who attacked Israel at its founding told the Arabs living in Palestine (later to be known as Palestinians) to flee. It was supposed to be temporary, because the plan was to “push the Jews into the sea.” When the plan didn’t work out, all of these states refused to absorb the Palestinians. They wanted to keep them in camps because they still planned to annihilate Israel and the Jews that lived there and then the Palestinians could return. The West Bank was in Jordan and Gaza was in Egypt until 1967, when the Arab states tried again to push the Jews into the sea. Their failure this time ended with Israel capturing these territories. When Israel tried to exchange land for peace and give Gaza back to Egypt, Egypt didn’t want it. And so the territories remained in Israel. In 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza and left it to govern itself. Most of the West Bank is also self-governing, but not all because of the high number of suicide bombers and other threats to Israel’s existence fomenting there, so Israel hasn’t been able to fully remove itself. The current awful Israeli government has allowed religious fanatics, “settlers,” to build settlements there, which makes everything worse.
And you see what I did there? I criticized Israel’s government. I can do that, and still support the existence of a Jewish state in our ancestral homeland.
When you say “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” this is a call to ethnic cleansing of Jews from their homeland, from the only state in the entire Middle East that would look remotely familiar to you in terms of basic rights and freedoms and a democratic system if you were to visit the region. When Hamas supporters – like those who led you all in a rally on my home campus today – talk about Jews as “occupiers,” they don’t mean Gaza. They mean the whole state of Israel. They want Jews eradicated from the entire land. Hamas actually wants us gone from the whole world, as they have stated many times. Who are the Nazis now?
But here I am, teaching again. I can’t help myself. I wish that you cared what I had to say. I wish that some knowledge, some context, some understanding, could reach beyond the slogans and chants for my death that you are repeating mindlessly and endlessly as you march to the beat of hatred across the tattered remains of my broken soul.

Israel shouldn't exist is an even more radicle position than The Palestinian Authority holds. Israel is a nuclear country on it's own, and is backed up by America which has the best military in the history of the world. I don't see any path in the near or far future where America doesn't back Israel since that support is one of the few things that both the right and the majority of the left agree on. Israel exists. 

The major motivator for the most recent attack on Israel was the looming normalization of ties with Saudi Arabia who also believe Israel exists.

If all attacks on Israel are justified because they shouldn't exist there can't be peace ever in the next 100 years, and if all violence is justified to fix past wrongs then their is just endless violence on the horizon. 

John Oliver's take. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8

FREE PALESTINE

END THE OCCUPATION

BROWN LIVES MATTER

That is such an ignorant post JLP. Back up your argument as opposed to raising a flag . 
 

Klexa great takes ! 
 

im done w this thread that supports the extermination of my relatives . 
 

Nancy thank you for posting that article.

wanting Palestineans not to be slaughtered by genocide does not equal anti semitism, which seems to be your accusation?

you do you, tho

also i did not present "an argument" or flag (whatever that means) 

i stand by my words

and yea, i call this genocide RACISM

I take issue with it being called "genocide," simply because it isn't. I take issue with the bombing of civilians. I understand that Israel is in an "impossible situation."

Anyone who thinks Hamas are "freedom fighters" is a fucking idiot.

Fuck Hamas 

Just a reminder that 60%+ of Israeli Jews are just as brown as the Palestinians.

JLP is correct.

Palestinians have a right to exist in their homeland without violent occupation, war crimes against civilians and deliberate genocide. Everything else is just an excuse for slaughter and land grab. Israel is not entitled to destroy Gaza just because they're a nuclear power backed by the US.

Colonisers arrest 700 children each year. 42% are injured with gunshot wounds or broken bones. Children. 69% are strip searched. Children. 86% are beaten. 50% beaten with sticks. 60% beaten with guns. Children. 76% threatened with harm. Children. This is life under ‘Israel’ 

Bibi's popularity has been abysmal at best

he wants to remain in power and war is prolly his only hope

then there is this...

ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR

Israel Knew Hamas’ Attack Plan a Year Before Oct. 7: Report

Israeli officials had initially dismissed Hamas' plan as overly ambitious, the New York Times reports

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/israel-hamas-attack-...

178 palestinians killed since this morning...

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8B5eLHm/

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8B5eLHm/

the "we want a jewish genocide" chant that this woman mentions as her only evidence of this "rising antisemitism" is false reporting that was debunked weeks ago.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ucla-jewish-genocide-video/

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-israel-hamas-ucla-penn-genocide-05...

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/oct/24/viral-image/no-upenn-r...

> the "we want a jewish genocide" chant that this woman mentions as her only evidence of this "rising antisemitism" is false reporting that was debunked weeks ago.

As were the beheaded babies that she mentions. Blossom's video is dated 10-27, and should probably be taken down for spreading misinformation at this point.

Classy post, Benway. Rising anti Semitism (no quotation marks around it) has been well documented worldwide and in the US. It sure as hell sounds to me like you're denying that fact by using "her only evidence of this 'rising antisemitism.'"

Do you deny that there's been a marked rise in antisemitism since Trump and especially since this war started? 

Where are all of the female attackers? Murderers? Torturers? Rapists? Oppressors?  I see only males.

Maybe testosterone is much more of the world's problem than anything else, if we stand back and look at the picture objectively and remove the national and religious labels that blind.. Who is actually doing the harm in virtually in all wars and conflicts across the globe?? Males. We actually don't learn shit from keeping history, We ( male dominated governments ) consistently repeat the most abhorrent human behavior imaginable.  The antiquated Patriarchal design is a complete failure based on pure ego; nothing more than a male's physical power to defend and protect. It's a completely failed societal model the world over and it's going to take a long, long, time to change. 

Hamas didn't cut the heads off babies. They're upstanding freedom fighters that have been unfairly maligned by the Zionists.

Brian, I have a simple question. In your mind, is it possible to oppose the policies of the present Israeli regime and not be anti-Semitic?

Absolutely. There's plenty to criticize. However, slogans like "genocide," "ethnic cleansing," and "colonialism " aren't policy discussions. They aren't even based in fact. Pick a fucking policy, address it with fair criticism. For instance, what Bibi has allowed the settlers to do in the West Bank is criminal and disgusting. His head of security services is a fucking racist piece of shit. Arming those religious zealots and giving them free reign to take land, and now kill Palestinians with immunity is sickening.

What's happening in Gaza is tragic and heartbreaking. Sure, they'll bring Hamas to its knees, but at what cost of life and long-term hatred? Eradicating Hamas is a fair end, but the means matter.

At the same time, Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself.

So yes, please, let's criticize specific people and policies. Saying Israel has no right to exist, or "from the river to the sea," are patently antisemitic. Those slogans I used above are pretty much so.

Does that make sense?

Is Israel's right to exist dependent on the continued and indefinite subjugation of Palestinians?

> Does that make sense?

It does, and where it's coming from--the cool head of reason--is what the world needs more of. Comments like referring to Hamas as "upstanding freedom fighters that have been unfairly maligned by the Zionists" don't help. They just muddy the waters further.

No, a 2 state solution is the only way forward. Hamas will never allow that. Nor will Bibi's coalition of cocksuckers. The hey can and will be voted out. Hamas won't.

Gaza will always be a problem. If Palestine is in the West Bank, I don't see how a satellite state separated by Israel could work. It's not like Alaska and Canada.

As a layperson with some knowledge and a care for peace, I think think Gaza will probably have to go to Israel, which will have to give up a big hunk of the West Bank, including cities that have been there for 2 generations. Both Israel and Palestine, in good faith, will need to reign in their extremists and make it clear that violence won't be tolerated.

when you keep bombing a civilian  population to the point that you are killing 14 thousand or more people...you are no longer "defending yourself".

i get it...the bad guys live there too....

You're right, Mike. I don't want to muddy the waters on Hamas. They are a terrorist organization. They didn't cut the heads off babies, but the widespread rape and torture on 10/7 has been well documented. Their stated goal is the total destruction of Israel, and until they slightly changed their charter in 2017, is was also to kill all Jews. 

It's interesting that Hamas gives death counts, but does not list any of them as Hamas combatants. They definitely use human shields. I don't know if their command center was under that hospital, but I don't doubt it. I'm sure there's some good intel on that.

Yes Turtle, it's heartbreaking.

>is it possible to oppose the policies of the present Israeli regime and not be anti-Semitic?

Depends if one can distinguish between opposing the current leadership and opposing the State of Israel.

Frequently there's Anti-Semitic  rhetoric being by those who are looking to validate their hate against the Jewish people.

When Muslim extremists and their allies promote the destruction of Israel, Parrot  "from the river to the sea",  refuse to condemn the Hamas atrocities on October 7,  excuse/defend  terrorist activities against Israelis and Jews -  it crosses over to Antisemitism.

Most Jewish people and our allies oppose Bibi's authority, as we stand firmly against the Hamas and terrorist groups intent on the destruction of  Israel, we we condemn the needless killing of ANY civilians, including Palestinians

Pro Palestinians consistently fail to  demonstrate  compassion and support  for the Jewish people and Israelis murdered and kidnapped, and use their own civilians as human shields.

Go ahead and criticize Bib's response to the terrorist attack all you want, but goddamn, why can't y'all criticize Hamas and their allies?! It's sickening. 

Most all Jewish and Israelis support a  2-state solution. When Hamas violated a cease fire and murdered over a thousand innocent and kidnapped hundreds, seeing those  parrot  whatabouisms indicates a level of hatred toward the Jewish people that is  alarming

Why don't  Muslim nations to work with the Muslim Palestinians  in region to set up an autonomous government there, with a UN buffer zone near Israel's borders to prevent more terrorist attacks against the democratic state of Israel?  Jewish Settlements along the border need to be removed and any right wing settlers need to be held accountable if they attack Palestinians. 

So yes, It's Anti Semitic to refuse to condemn the October 7 terrorist atrocities and call for the return of the hostages.

Other than the total destruction of the  State of Israel, a  democratic Jewish state surrounded by Authoritarian Muslim regimes, I've heard the Pro Palestinians propose NO solution to this crisis. Y'all support the Taliban too?!  

https://www.thejewishstar.com/stories/9-big-lies-about-israel-and-what-t...?

You know what else is anti semitic? When a Jewish person calls something out as ant Semitic and gentiles say, "no it's not, you're just being sensitive." It's amazing that liberals recognize the inherent bias and systemic racism against people of color, but refuse to see it when it comes to Jews. The phenomenon is a testament to how inherent it is in our society.

Seriously, look at Europe's history. The Holocaust wasn't some one-off perpetuated by only the Germans. It was a logical culmination of 2,000 years of hatred, scapegoating, and fear.

Good answer. then why keep demanding (while also "minimizing") words like ethnic cleansing or colonization be off limits from discussion?

>>For instance, what Bibi has allowed the settlers to do in the West Bank is criminal and disgusting. His head of security services is a fucking racist piece of shit.<<

This is literally ethnic cleansing

>>Arming those religious zealots and giving them free reign to take land, and now kill Palestinians with immunity is sickening.<<

This is literally colonization 
 

You want to pick a policy? Those are, and have been Israels de facto policies for many decades. They are huge.

With care, and as respectfully as I can here - It's the repeated curt and usually also preemptive dismissal of these concepts via "quotation marks" (as if they are complete non-starters) that make it incredibly hard to take whatever follows seriously. It literally undermines your own communication.

After 9-11, many in  the Muslim world celebrated the terrorist attack against America.

 Even though we weren't fans of G.W., most of the Country and world came together in solidarity against those who wanted to destroy us.

 I don't recall Americans - even the "Anti Zionists"  siding with the terrorists. sure, many Muslims (and their authoritarian regimes)  celebrated the deaths of the Jewish people working in the towers and spread conspiracy theories about Jews. It's been a while though and I've forgotten how easily the antisemitism hate  reveals itself in these moments. 

Israel is not an apartheid state and if we're going to talk about history of colonialism as an excuse for terrorism, does that mean you want to  see America destroyed because of our history of Colonialism?

Don't know if there is a rise in anti-Semitism but the current conflict has brought a lot of anti-Semites (and Islamophobes) out of the closet and given them a vehicle to spout their bigoted views, especially when it is veiled by or mixed in with legitimate criticism of the Israeli government's policies towards Palestine and its conduct of the war in Gaza (and there is a lot to be critical about).   Where being "pro-Palestine" crosses the line is when it calls for the destruction of Israel, either expressly or implicitly.   Sad fact is that many in Palestine would love to see Israel wiped off the map and Oct. 7 shows they would act on those urges if given a chance.   This is terribly traumatic for Jews in Israel and around the globe who are only a generation or two separated from the death camps.

So its important that those voicing criticism of the Israeli government avoid terms like "From the River to the Sea" and "Occupied Palestine," which can be construed (or misconstrued) as calling for the destruction of Israel.  Plenty of ways to expressly call out the Israeli government's war crimes and piss poor treatment of Palestinians without using such loaded slogans.

And I think we can all agree that killing children and other civilians is bad and that both Israel and Palestine should enjoy the basic freedoms of peace, security, and self determination. Unfortunately, Israel cannot bomb its way to peace and Palestine won't be free if it keeps falling for violent extremists like Hamas.   Will take a lot of work to break this cycle, but love can conquer hate and we should remain hopeful about getting there.  Two state solution with modified 1967 borders and robust land for peace seems the best way out of this mess.

"Ethnic cleansing" is literally defined as homogenization of a heterogeneous area. As I'm sure you know, Israel proper is quite heterogeneous. Neither the zealot settlers nor the Palestinians want to live in heterogeneous areas. So yes, it is illegally displacing residents. And no, it isn't ethnic cleansing by strict definition.

You're using "colonization" very differently than the majority, who define Israel's entire existence as such.

I believe I've given some very fair and balanced opinions, highly critical of specific Israeli policies. If you want to discount them because we disagree on the definitions of a few terms, that's on you.

Anyone reading this can google these kind of definitions for themselves and make an educated decision 

I'm not going to "split words" over it

End of the day, a 2 state solution eliminates any potential colonization or ethnic cleansing, right?

It should, yes

It's also not on the table

It will be once again. Bibi and his coalition won't be around for too much longer.

Does anyone remember the details of the plan Arafat nixed that gave 98% of what they wanted? Was it just Jerusalem that was the sticking point?

BIbi and his far right coalition aren't  the only obstacle- a large majority of Palestinians oppose a 2 state solution.  
 

Israelis Are Angry at Netanyahu, but Chances of His Ouster Are Slim

Many hold Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responsible for his government’s failure to prevent the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas. His legacy could be determined by his actions in the coming days.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/world/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-ham...

doesn't look like anytime soon

from the article

Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition currently holds 74 seats. To topple him, at least 13 members of Parliament would need to leave his coalition or a no-confidence vote would have to be held in the legislature with another candidate selected to replace Mr. Netanyahu.

Aviv Bushinsky, a former political adviser to Mr. Netanyahu, said that neither scenario was likely.

“Almost everyone you speak to today will tell you the same thing — that Netanyahu must step down from office — he cannot continue to lead this country,” said Mr. Bushinsky. “And yet, at the same time, there is a very real scenario in which he remains prime minister despite his unpopularity because of the difficulty in replacing or removing him.”

Mr. Bushinsky said that some members of Mr. Netanyahu’s Likud party had spoken about splintering to form their own party, but they were unlikely to do so in the midst of a war.

imo, seems like his only way to stay in power and avoid corruption charges

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9otNTz5LSs
 

for context

this interview is almost a month old

but it's solid

He makes some very solid points, especially about the rhetoric from some politicians and military, which speaks to intent. 

For further context, there 2 general factions of orthodox in Israel. The ultra-orthodox demand that the government cow-tows to their demands and funds their Yeshivas, passes sabbath laws, with the understanding that they will give nothing back. The next is the hard-line orthodox. They send their kids to military schools, and they end up in military power positions. Way too many of those religious hard-liners believe that Israel should rid itself of all non Jews. They have no love for secular Jews either. They are racists and Islamaphbes.

Keep in mind that Bibi received only 23% of the vote, and he courted those assholes for his coalition government. As a result they have much more power than they should. It all plays into their  push to reform the Supreme Court, which is very liberal. The majority of the population doesn't want religious right policies, which led to all those protests we saw.

Interesting tidbit, 20 years ago and before, only about 20% of Israelis considered themselves religious in any way. I believe that has grown to 40%. I don't know the breakdown of where on the religious spectrum they fall, but the ultra orthodox are a power minority.

Do you deny that there's been a marked rise in antisemitism since Trump and especially since this war started?

i deny that there has been a rise in antisemitism outside of fundamentalist muslims and right wing types who were already into antisemetic conspiracy or neonazi ideology. among those groups, i do see that they have been more comfortable being publicly antisemetic. 

the implication that there is a rise in antisemitism among groups in the US like leftists or college students, yes, i do deny this, i have yet to see a single example of this that was not later disproven as fake news or that was not pro-palestine/anti-isreal speech being falsely cast as antisemitism, and this is usually the implication of statements like those that are being made in the video that was linked, that there is some kind of huge rise in antisemitism among people on the left, young people, or the general american population, which i see absolutely zero evidence of.

Saying Israel has no right to exist, or "from the river to the sea," are patently antisemitic.

question -

if i spend hours and hours and hours and hours reading about the history of isreal and the isreal/palestine conflict, and come to the conclusion that the idea of colonial powers creating a state on already occupied land via organized immigration is immoral, and that the creation of isreal was a huge mistake, is there a way for me to express this sentiment without being antisemetic, assuming im not endorsing the destruction of isreal?

There you have it.

>>there a way for me to express this sentiment without being antisemetic, assuming im not endorsing the destruction of isreal?

Yeah, the way you said it there isn't antisemitic.

You know it wasn't all "organized immigration," right? 900,000 Jews were forcibly removed from their ancestral homes in Arab countries between about 1940 and 1970. Their homes, land, and businesses were stolen from them. About 300k were taken in by Western countries and 600k went to Israel.

 anti Israel folks forget that Jewish people ARE indigenous to Israel. It's in our DNA.  Literally. 

Palestinians came from Arab nations not Israel. so the colonialism BS is propaganda. 

Yeah, Shit has happened for thousands of years. Shifting powers back and forth..

How to move forward without repeating the antisemitic propaganda or killing  the shit out of each other?

It's  time to amplify the voices of those who seek common ground - people who don't spread blood libel BS and shutting down those Bibi supporting far right assholes.
 

Peace is possible. Made more difficult when the hate for Jewish people persists. 

>>>>the creation of isreal was a huge mistake, is there a way for me to express this sentiment without being antisemetic

Many modern countries in the Middle East and Africa were created by Western powers drawing lines on maps.  Israel and Palestine are no different.  And to keep things in context, the good ole USA is the product of the worst form of colonialism and genocide (which is anything but hyperbole).  We accept that historic fact but nobody is seriously discussing giving the whole country lock, stock, and barrel back to the Indian tribes.  So you can have academic discussions about what happened 100 years ago with the Palestine Mandate and whether it was a good idea to return the Jews to their ancient homeland without the consent of the then current occupants, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is an established country and isn't going anywhere (and neither is Palestine).  But we can also have practical, not so academic discussions on what is happening here and now in the 21st Century and how to stop the cycle of violence, which could include a return to the 1967 borders, dismantling the  settlements, and use of buffers if needed to ensure security for both Israel and Palestine.  

And the French and British goofed in not creating an independent Kurdistan.  

Thank you, Ken. I appreciate your perspective and understanding of realities.

It's interesting, Syria was created the same way. That little nubbin of territory in the northeast was nicknamed "Churchill's Sneeze." Look what's happening there.

This group seems like they're supporting dialogue, seeking common ground and Peace : 

https://www.facebook.com/standingtogetherenglish/

https://www.standing-together.org/en

Genocide. Apartheid. Colonization. Settlers. They are all extremely divisive words that do nothing to help people understand the plight of the Palestinians. It doesn’t have to be genocide to be horrible. So many of the western free Palestine people would rather have semantic arguments than to create allies and in the process have squandered 20 years of growing support for actual Palestinians.

Israel particularly in the last 20 years has been horrible, but the rest of the world including the Arab world stood around and did nothing to try and solve the problem, because having oppressed Palestinians always ready to kick a western ally in the face was preferable to actually doing anything to solve the problem. 

The reflexive condemnation of Israel after the attacks on them and the inability to condemn rape, torture, kidnaping of babies and 80 year olds has been disgusting. You aren't winning any arguments when the best you can say is they probably didn't decapitate babies or as many did denying the hostage even existed. 

The condemnation of the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is a huge advance in western media coverage that would not have happened 20 year ago. No one except for the far right is giving Israel a blank check and that is a good thing. If you want to grow support on the left please stop lecturing about things that have nothing to do with this conflict and will do nothing to stop it. Who was there first and who it belongs to is the dumbest argument ever particularly coming from Americans. We could have that argument about every patch of land in the world. I mean what about the current state of the world makes people believe we can fix past wrongs when we can't even address what is going on right now all over the world. 

Palestinians very survival depends on creating allies and so much of what I have seen from people who support them is doing the exact opposite and condemning them to further misery. 

it's just easier to call people names than have any type of rational debate...

I have a very unpleasant neighbor whose backyard shares my fence. He and his brother and friends exude meth use. He's the guy who shot arrows into my fence and over it into my yard. Bad, bad aim.

Anyway, he hung an american flag on the fence a few months ago. Apparently someone recently took it. He came over to ask me if I took the flag. I said no because I hadn't taken it. He said he didn't believe me and I was lying and I'd lied about other things. I sort of shrugged (what could I say?). He then told me that he thinks someone who's anti-Israeli took it. I don't try to make sense of what he says.

He told me that he's going to hang another flag. I said I'd prefer he didn't hang anything on the fence. He said I shouldn't worry about it, that he's going to move to California.
I hope he does.

It's  not about "debate" it's about sticking to facts and refraining from spreading antisemitic  propaganda and hate.

Hamas violated a cease fire with their attack on October 7, murdering and kidnapping  innocent Israelis - attending a  MUSIC FESTIVAL - and slaughtering families in their homes  - which all needs to be condemned, without excuse, false equivalences and whataboutisms. 

The cycle of revenge and retribution needs to end and people need to work towards finding common ground and a solution to end the cycle of violence in the region.

There is no debate that  that Israel has a right to exist.  

There is no debate that Palestinians  deserve self determination.

 And..Palestinian women and girls face entrenched discrimination and rights violations within their own society, and throughout the Arab world -  where girls and women are told to  sit down, shut up and  cover up their bodies. Free Palestine, sure. But there are bigger issues that need to be addressed if Palestinian  girls and women are to be truly free. 

there's no debate that the israeli govt. is indiscriminately killing civilians.

Yes, and that's awful. And needs to stop. 

There's no debate that since  Hamas terrorists hide among civilians,  and tunnel under schools and hospitals, it certainly contributes to the civilian casualties. They use the Palestinian people (and the hostages)as human shields. Fact. 

Hamas are also are holding over a hundred hostages, and raping the women and girls.  Using sexual violence as a tool of war is unconscionable.
 

Again, there's no debate that Hamas violated a cease fire with their terrorist activities.  There's no debate that Bibi's response is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Palestinians. War sucks. 
 

What's the plan for Gaza once Hamas is eliminated? 

I can't recall hearing much about that and it seems like someone should figure that out before Gaza ends up being a graveyard of Israeli soldiers stuck there trying to police a bombed out moonscape full of angry traumatized people who resent them and have nothing to lose.

The Israelis will take Gaza from Hamas and give it back to the Palestinians. The future holds a land rebuilt with the most modern architecture. 3D buildings printed with the greatest success. 

Using sexual violence as a tool of war is unconscionable.

I fully agree but I've seen zero evidence that supports this claim about the female hostages Hamas took. What we *know* so far is that Israeli hostages that have been allowed to speak to the press affirmed humane treatment, while Palestinian hostages have attested to beatings & sexual assault.

Then there's this guy 

Done with this thread it's like having a discussion with MAGA -  just a willful denial to fit a narrative you want to believe.

Water freezes at 32 degrees. Hamas uses rape as a weapon of war. End of story. 

There is plenty of proof of rape and sexual violence by Hamas on 10/7. Plenty. I'm glad that dise posted the above graphic. It shows that Israel prosecutes and convicts its soldiers and guards that rape. 

I saw a clip of an interview with an IDF spokesperson, and they asked about the death count. He said that very soon they'll have verifiable proof that it's 2:1 civilians to combatants. He said that in modern urban warfare against terrorists, that ratio is so low that it's unheard of. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying that perspective.

Of course, when compared to what we did when rooting out al Qaeda/Taliban, he's right, but that's a really low fucking bar.

Yesterday I read a report of a young girl on a kibbutz who played dead while her sister was gang raped, and then shot in the head while the Hamas dude was still inside her. They apparently have videos of other sexual violence, like the breasts being cut off a female soldier and played with while she was raped. They have evidence of girls and women whose vaginas and breasts had been shot.

But it's nice to see people still painting Hamas as righteous freedom fighters.

Exactly, El Nino

sadly, the Antisemitism is prevalent among those using this moment to let their Jewish hate out of the closet as they spread propaganda - including blood libel, and hate under the guise of caring for Palestinian rights.

Anyone citing one example of a Jewish criminal to deny  Hamas' use of systematic rape and terror is too caught up in their hate for Jewish people to see how wrong they are.

Most of the articles in that meme are 10-15 years old.

'Me too, unless you're a Jew'

nothing to see here?! 
 

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2023/12/05/hamas-sexual-violence-israel

I wouldn't say that meme wars are the worst wars, but they're definitely the laziest wars.

(BeforeOct7) IOF soldiers with their police dogs forced 5 Palestinian women to fully undress in front of the soldiers while the women's children watched in shock and horror

https://twitter.com/i/status/1731930966237610279 

Hey feel free to provide some proof about your assertion that Hamas is more rapey than IOF. I haven't seen any of it, only blurred pictures from 2022 of a dead female Kurdish soldier that Israel claimed was raped and killed by Hamas Oct 7th (that has since been been debunked). My guess is y'all don't need proof to believe all sorts of things, but I do need evidence. You say there's "plenty" of proof but didn't post anything that has a legitimate source. 

 

Last I looked on the X, the MAGAs are on your side regarding IOF, El Klexa. 

TW sexual violence/graphic content in links

"The Israeli govt has published a photo purporting to show a victim of rape by Hamas militants at the Nova music festival on October 7 The image predates 10/7 and likely shows a female Kurdish fighter killed in action whose corpse was defiled. They are described on a Japanese website as "beautiful Kurdish soldiers killed on the battlefield." The post is dated from May 2023. Here's the Japanese site where the original image can be seen: https://carro-groce.com/guro-gazou/32487.html… The Israeli Foreign Ministry has published the fake photo here: https://hamas-massacre.net/categories/the-nova-party-massacre…"
 

I get it. When you believe Israel has no right to exist, and there should be "a free Palestine, from the river to the the sea, by any means necessary," you give Hamas a free pass.  It doesn't matter that they took hostages or how they treated them. There's no onus on them to return them to end the war. Israel deserves what it gets, simply for existing, and it's all on them to do what Hamas wants. Hamas are freedom fighters, not terrorists.

I disagree. The end.

Source for the first meme *from 2016, so not exactly new news, but Rabbi Col. Eyal Karim is still currently the IDF Chief Rabbi in an official position. 

https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-idf-chief-rabbi-says-soldiers-can-rape...

 

See my post somewhere above regarding religious hardliners in the IDF. Good thing most Israelis aren't religious and don't listen to people like him. One rabbi saying it doesn't make it official policy, nor does it mean it's widespread.

BK I never said any of those things. You're projecting a lot of nonsense onto me instead of having a reasonable discussion about collective punishment, genocide, and war crime.lol! 

We definitely seem to agree that Netanyahu is a huge POS. 

 I'm glad that dise posted the above graphic. It shows that Israel prosecutes and convicts its soldiers and guards that rape. 

Well, sometimes anyhow..
https://twitter.com/i/status/1731785445585854588

I don't agree that it's genocide, in any way, shape or form. Israel has been accused of that long before this. Although some Israeli douchebags call for it, it's not policy or being played out. It's war, and it's horrifying how many innocent lives are being lost. I can't imagine what they're living through. As Ken said above, using loaded terms like genocide doesn't help the dialogue.

Do you agree that Hamas wants Israel completely destroyed and won't stop until that happens? Do you also believe that until 2017 the Hamas charter called for the death of Jews in general, and they still teach that in Palestinian schools? 

so much easier just to call people names.

What the fuck are you talking about with that?

i am apparently an anti-semite because i do not approve of the official ISRAELI GOVT's position...

Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about. Nobody here has called anyone that for what you said.

well lookit who agrees with me here. 

nothing about this is simple regardless what you believe is true or correct

alls i *do* know is Palestinian folks are being relentlessly slaughtered over an event cited from October, and that this current, blatant, unchecked (#ceasefiremyphatass) mass murder includes such hits as: hospitals, homes, civilians, elderly, newborn babies forced to perish as the occupiers withhold such things as: electricity and Water.

kinda how 9.11 {of the usofA, not to be confused with the october 9.11, as some love to frame it} was a great excuse to tighten the screws on the privacy of citizen lives, ya know, more outwardly.

if i hadn't said it here...

this is Syria 2.0

sickening, and you don't wanna call it racist? howsabout: anti-Muslim?

It's anti Hamas. 
 

It's anti Houthis.  

Much like the Taliban, these are terrorists who oppress women and want to destroy Israelis.. and Americans.
 

Those  embracing antisemitism align themselves with these hate groups.  
 

Fuck Hamas and Fuck Netanyahu. Both are terrorists. They feed on each other and the populations of beautiful people only suffer.  Fuck misogyny and all who practice it. That certainly includes many ultraconservative religious sects. Love your neighbor as yourself ain't a bad saying.

Terrorists is a curious term...   how does a populace respond to 'assassinations' by a government?  I remember when my brother in law (Phd Presbyterian minister) was in Lebanon in 82 when that resort city got bombed into 3rd world status by a local government.  So much blood on so many hands, how can the oppressed respond to it?  Sincere question.  The stories my brother in law told were horrific, to the extreme, but none of his specific stories (too gruesome to repeat here) ever made it to the western press.  Terms like genocide, massacres, war crimes, hate crimes, who was targeted, and how, why, seems irrelevant to the overall picture of true hideousness of the horrors perpetuated (by all the haters, regardless of what flag you fly, or ethnicity you exhibit, or religion you declare).

Love to all the people, Fk! those that slay others!  And a serious F! you to tribalism and religion!  

"both sides are right, but both sides murder, I give up, why can't they".  (I must not thing bad thoughts - X) 

Assassination by a government?!  Yes, Hamas is the government that violated a cease fire and  sent it's troops to commit atrocities targeting civilians dancing at a music festival, burning families alive, kidnapping and murder of babies and  civilians, and rape. 

 

Unbelievable that the propaganda has idiots making excuses for terrorism.  
 

Fuck  Jihadist sympathizers . 

Facts matter:

250,000 civilian deaths in Syria with 14 million displaced.

Hard to equate that with 10,000 non combatant deaths with 1.4 million displaced in Gaza.

The rate of civilian deaths in Gaza has been obscenely higher than most other urban warfare conflicts, but that has clearly slowed.

^^^^

Just a point of order.   The 250,000 civilian deaths in Syria happened over the course of a 12-year-war.

The 10,000 civilian deaths in Gaza (assuming the IDF is correct on the number of Hamas fighters killed) occurred over the course of two months, which is a almost three times higher than in the Syrian Civil War.  

Agreed. Notice I said "obscenely higher."

I just watched a news piece on MSNBC of the extremely delayed response time of the IDF and Israeli police to this attack.  Have not heard any real news coverage on this. Somewhere between 12 and 24 hours for authorities to respond.  The western press supposedly had reporters on the ground reporting this attack before any police or IDF show up.  Does seem strange and the current Israeli government is not giving any answers.  It isn't that big of a country and logistically doesn't seem to make sense.  Current Netanyahu government saying there will be a time and place to talk about this after the war.  Any failures can be addressed after th e war.  Many stories of people hiding for up to a full day until any rescuers show up.  

There were evidently AP photographers embedded with Hamas on 10/7.

Israel has killed 75 journalists and over 100 UN workers since Oct. 7th,

Israel has killed over 8,500 civilian Palestinian children since Oct. 7th. The average age of civilians killed by IOF is FIVE years old.

Fact check yourself, dise. Total deaths as reported by Hamas are just over 16,000. Estimates are that a third are children, a third are Hamas combatants, and a third adult civilians. It would be near mathematically impossible for the average age of all civilians killed to be 5.

I really need to ask you, what do you think Hamas should do at this point? Do they have any onus in trying to stop this war? It's always "Israel, Israel, Isreal...," and people don't say shit about Hamas' responsibility.

>>The goal should be one country, one people, living together in harmony in a tolerant society that embraces and celebrates it's diversity.

Will there be unicorn rides and rainbow slides?

Small steps...

We have rave slaughters. 

Politics aside, could you imagine being up all night, rolling on molly, doing vodka shots at sunrise, and like a scene from Red Dawn masked people start coming out of the woodworks and firing all sorts of weapons?

>>Curiously, one of Nutenyahu's newest programs is to arm as many of the Israeli civilians as possible.  Gee, what could possibly go wrong?

The policy is actually to arm as many of the religious nut West Bank settlers as possible, and not prosecute them when they kill Palestinians for no reason and in broad daylight. It's fucking disgusting what that piece of shit is doing to keep his coalition of crazies on his side.

Any discussion where people seem agreeable, but advocate for 'small steps' solutions rings hollow to my hears.  That is the argument that a powerful group makes when asked to give up even a little of their power. The racists in this country always use this argument when it comes to any new civil rights proposals.  They say things like 'I believe in equal rights, but we can't just upend the complete system overnight.  Let's go slow with some small incremental changes. Real societal change often does come slowly, but but political will and underlying statutory legal changes can happen very quickly. The 14th amendment in this country took all of 2 years to get done as each state needed to vote on it.  But still, 2 years is a relatively short time.  Many laws can get passed even quicker than that. 

It seems there are two paths that could be tried in order to bring a long term solution to this Israeli/Palestinian conflict. One larger state that has a 1st Amendment  like ours which forbids any laws respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. So Jews and Muslims could each practice their faith unimpeded. The state would have to be secular.

The other path would be the two state solution and then Israel and the Palestinian state could make laws respecting religion however each saw fit. I would lean towards the first solution. But lets at least try one or the other.  The status quo has been in place my whole lifetime and clearly isn't working. 

There already is freedom of religion within Israel proper. Virtually every Christian denomination is represented. Mosques are everywhere.

Christmas Celebrations Canceled in Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Jordan

Gutted by Gaza, Holy Land Christians exchange holiday cheer for a hallowed Christmas Eve in solidarity with suffering neighbors.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/november/bethlehem-christmas...

Israeli police attack Torah Jews 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu9izRis0CA

@TorahJudaism

We would be happy if everyone please support us and share this post. Dear president

US House passes resolution declaring 'anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism' in a 311-14 vote. The common message of Jewish Rabbis. Anti-Zionism is NOT Antisemitism. Being against Zionism is never Antisemitism. Criticizing Israel is never antisemitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Israel is not a Jewish state. There are thousands of anti-Zionist, anti-Israel Jews in the world, and now you claim that Jews are the enemies of Judaism. A common message from Anti-Zionist Rabbis. Anti-Zionism is NOT Antisemitism. Zionism is not Judaism. Israel is not the state of the Jews. Being anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli does not make you anti-Semitic.

This decision is nothing more than targeting hundreds of thousands of American Hasidic Jewish communities who are anti-Zionism and anti-Israel. With this decision, the American government targeted anti-Zionist Jews. This decision should be abandoned as soon as possible.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1732275393825022235 

Opinion: Palestinian Christians are losing loved ones in Israel’s bombing in Gaza. Where’s the outcry from Western Christian communities?

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-02/israel-palestine-gaza-c...

What are those supposed to prove?

UN Human rights chief “ situation in Gaza is apocalyptic”

https://twitter.com/i/status/1732786868788350977

lol, do you have a friggin' clue why your Torah Jews are anti Israel?

You know who else loves them? The Ayatollah.

enough of this shit. 

send each population to the opposite polar continent.

turn Jerusalem into a fucking theme park.

nobody gets to live there.

That's your solution, Turtle? Absolutely pathetic. 

Go ahead and cause Israelis even more suffering after  being attacked on October 7th. 

Israel and it's people (Jews, Muslims,Christians, Arab, and Palestinian  citizens) aren't going anywhere. Try again. Your proposed  solution sucks. 

FUCK HAMAS and their defenders. And FUCK those who  suggest ISRAEL doesn't have a right to exist.

i'm not defending hamas you dumb ass.

what's your solution?

there isn't one.

i do not see any paradigm shift or leap of human consciousness materializing.

what's pathetic is your contrast equating of criticism of the israeli GOVT.'s policies with anti-semitism.

take a fucking look at some international papers' headlines...i am hardly the only critic.

go ahead an keep being an apologist for killing civilians. it's a great look on you!

YOU are the only one putting words in people's mouths.

Tsk Tsk, Turtle. Your hatred is ugly. 

And scroll up, cause I already stated that I favor a 2-State Solution. And while that's being worked out, maybe Egypt wants to step and govern the occupied lands and clean up the mess HAMAS created. 

Israel  has a right to exist. 

Say for the class, Turtle. Go ahead, I dare ya..

And to my Jewish friends celebrating today, Happy  Hanukkah.

Can you believe the amount of Anti Semitic BS permeating the conversations?!

>> Firstly, thanks to everyone participating in this discussion for keeping the tone civil and relatively drama-free.

Aside from one post,  it's a good thing that I'm not participating. 
IMHO, when "dead heads" or anybody else call 4 the destruction of Israel, that sure sounds uncivil to me. 
Having family & friends who live in Israel and reading what some write here, it just makes me sad.  When people discuss "an event cited from October" like that "event" was either not worthy of any response or the fault of the victims; it suggests to me that these people see nothing wrong with rape, sexual violence, mutilation, burning babies (plus being proud of it) and that doing this to Jewish people is acceptable.  The implication being that Jewish people deserve this. 
Reminds me of a time that I was in Israel, watching a movie about the holocaust and hearing young Jewish teenagers wonder why none (or few) of the victims fought back to defend themselves.  
 

I luv this music. While I used to enjoy participating on this site, (to the relief of many), feel free to applaud while I exit stage left. 
Ain't no time to hate.

 

seriously go fuck yourself nancy.

i have NO PROBLEM with,

the state of Israel existing, Jews or Judiasm....

I want nothing more than PEACE for all peoples.

i really do not see ANYONE here calling for the destruction of isreal, as that guy states. hyperbole like this makes it hard to take any your positions seriously and is a dis-service to your people.

I'm all done.

Name calling and spreading propaganda isn't a good look. So, good riddance, T. 

The hatred is so transparent, and so is the double speak. 

>i really do not see ANYONE here calling for the destruction of isreal 

of course you don't. you can't even see it in your proposed "solution"

A good quote I read today from a wise woman:

"Risking coexistence and respect for each others’ humanity is still the only way forward. May we put down flags and slogans, and stand with human rights, with all survivors and victims, resisting selective empathy, resisting calls to excuse or deny violence, resisting propaganda that reinforces antisemitism and that ignores all the actual histories and suffering, resisting those who continue to use Palestinian, Jewish & Israeli people as pawns, always pitting us against each other to serve their own power, profits, and false prophesies…"

I hope some of you read this:

Undeniably, Jews have been the most prosecuted group in the history of the last 2,000 years. It's not made up, it's fact. From the British Isles to Russia to the Middle East, Jews have been mass murdered, forcibly removed from their homes, ghettoized, you name it. The Holocaust wasn't a one-off, it was the culmination of 2 millennia of systematic anti-semitism. It wasn't just the Germans, it was the French, Poles, Czechs, Italians, Greeks and all of Europe that has those deep seeds. They also ran very deep in the US. Jews are many people's favorite scapegoat.

Two thousand years of endemic anti-Semitism didn't just go away in 1945, it's still there, even in the US. There are constant micro and macro aggressions. Even someone on this board stated they don't believe there has been a real rise in antisemitism, regardless of the fact that it has been well documented in recent years. That denial, in itself is antisemitism.

The Gaza war has put Jews around the world on edge. The reality is that people do equate Israel with all Jews, and this is a scary time. When we hear, "from the river to the sea," or "by any means necessary," we know what that means. Think of that restauranteur in Philly who had hundred of people outside his place calling him genocidal, just because he's  a Jew. The people doing that are the same people who are sensitive to personal pronouns, systemic racism, and would never call all Muslims terrorists. We see and hear these aggressions increasing. They are real, and people who deny them really need to do some learning and introspection.

People are denying Hamas' sexual violence, yet it's documented. I can't imagine the terrors those military hostages have endured. They deny that Hamas want Israel destroyed and all Jews dead. They paint Hamas as freedom fighters. That is scary as shit because we know what it means.

Europe is a Christian continent. The US is a Christian country (please don't try to argue that it's not. Look at the red states, our SCOTUS, the Speaker of the House, etc). North Africa through the Arabian peninsula is Muslim. The only Jewish place is Israel. Yes, the way it was created caused problems and they've done so messed up shit, but Israel is a necessity. It's not if it happens again, it's when.

So, please understand that although some may not recognize something as overtly antisemitic, very often it is a micro aggression that Jews feel. When people say they are anti Zionist, they're saying Jews don't deserve the one sliver of land where they can have salt determination and a refuge when the shit hits the fan, a place where they can defend themselves. All I'm asking is that people try to understand what's very real to people, even if they are Jews. Please recognize how fucking hard this is for some of us. On one hand there's this very necessary country that was brutally attacked, and the act of defending itself has caused a worldwide increase in antisemitism. On the other hand most of us care deeply about what's happening to citizens of Gaza and want it to end.

When someone Black calls out racism, liberal-minded people take heed. When LGBTQIA calls out something as bigoted, liberal-minded people listen. When a Jews calls out antisemitism too many liberal-minded people argue it and deny it. That, in itself, is a testament to how endemic it really is. A Jew can't even define the term. It's very scary.

One veto 
 

It appears that The chair of Israel's "Hamas rape" commission, Cochav Elkayam Levy, has shared as evidence, a 2022 photo of dead Kurdish fighters as women raped by Hamas on Oct 7. When Max Blumenthal exposed her on it she did not even apologize. https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1732484798424240185 I am still awaiting facts and evidence.

Meanwhile here is a fact that Israeli army's chief Rabbi permitted raping of Palestinian women by Israelis:

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZS1Q0/

Israel has a long history of lying and using propaganda to bury reality. Here is a very compelling video systematically debunking Israel's lies related to October 7 attack, including the rape allegations:

https://electronicintifada.net/.../watch-debunking...

In contrast there is ample evidence by Israeli hostages saying that Hamas treated them humanely and as best as they could given their circumstances. To read subtitles you probably want to see it in full screen on desktop facebook app:

https://www.facebook.com/masood.mortazavi/videos/193034983804184

There are numerous videos of Israeli hostages with their Hamas captors looking at ease and even bantering with them.

So the latest Israeli propaganda is that Hamas drugged them to make them appear happy. Honestly, it is laughable, like so many of their propaganda:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/health-ministry-says.../....

Meanwhile, everything that Israel accuses Hamas of allegedly doing (without proof), they actually do (and there is ample proof):

- Using civilians as human shields: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoLEWS5sz4M

- Taking thousands of Palestinians hostage including woman and chilkdren. Often with no charges. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Palestinian_prisoners_in...

- Torture of prisoners https://www.amnesty.org/.../israel-opt-horrifying-cases.../

- Rape of prisoners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Owa90I77sE

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/04/israel1

Denying the atrocities and sexual violence  committed by Hamas is one way to stand out as Anti Semitic, going full blown with Whataboutisms instead of condemnation  leaves not doubt about your  hate towards Jews. 

At least we know who we can't trust to stand up for us when as the world turns on our people. 

Astounding that anyone believes all of Hamas' propaganda. I believe about 60% of what Israel says and 6% of Hamas. Electronic Intifada? Really?

Dise, how do you think those female Israeli soldier hostages are doing? You know think any of them are coming out alive? You think the bodies will even be recovered? Did you do some research on your "Torah Jews?" 

It's okay to hate Israel and still recognize Hamas ARE NOT freedom fighters.

lol, she didn't even read those links. One is about Covid tests. One is about what the rabbi said and clarified, and opposition to him. The best are the ones about Israeli guards raping prisoners and being prosecuted for it. Oh shit, prosecuted.

Get a grip on yourself, Dise. 

Shame on me for opposing genocide! Honestly. Who really needs to get a grip here. You're regurgitating unsubstantiated state issued violence porn with attention to explicit detail while I've refrained from posting the hundreds of pictures I've seen of mutilated and dead Palestinian children. Go touch some grass dude. This shit is horrifying and excusing genocide is really beneath you.

Huh? I responded directly to your links. I also asked you a question about female soldier hostages, which you didn't answer.

Dude stop trying so hard. I can hear you overdoing it from way over here on the side of peace for all. Buy a sportscar or something your fear porn is tedious.

Huh? I responded directly to your links. I also asked you a question about female soldier hostages, which you didn't answer.

I stopped taking you seriously long before this thread BK, your posts on this thread just reinforced my opinion that you're a sex creep, so no. No.

^ that's some left shark shit right there

jus sayin'

Noted and not concerned considering the source. Just saying

And as I've said over and over, it's horrifying, sad, and I want it to stop as much as you do. I disagree that it's genocide. It's an obscene response with a too high death count. I understand the reasoning for "why" they're carrying it out this way, but I don't agree that it's the right way, for many reasons. Tone it the fuck down and move to a straight ground war with surgical strikes. Deal with the settlers in the West Bank, end the policy of administrative detentions without trials. I've said all this in both threads on this.

And then there's Hamas. They are not freedom fighters. They are an oppressive regime that exacts their own brand of Sharia law on the people and keeps both Gazans and Israelis in a state of terror. They need to give every hostage back immediately, live or dead. There's a lot that needs to happen with Hamas.

I'm not using words like genocide. I'm not painting Hamas as upstanding freedom fighters. That's the big difference between you and I.

^^ making a point and not attacking the person might work 

but keep pounding the table

Let's hope tomorrow brings peace to those who are suffering.

Wow. That was uncalled for and quite ridiculous.

Seriously, in what world is it okay to call someone a "sexual creep" because you disagree about a war? That's fucked up.

It's not that we disagree about the definition of war crime, it's your absolute zeal for the sex crimes on this thread that grosses me out and confirms my opinion about you. You're gross and I'm not interested in feeding your sickness.

What the fuck are you talking about?

You know what? You're just being rude and mean beyond need, and that's your issue. Deal with yourself.

Yeah sure I'm rude and mean about it, but I'm not wrong. We all know how you like your eggs.

Ick

You know it's a genuine Hanukkah miracle when T.O.D. emerges as the voice of reason.

I like my eggs ovoid.

don't doubt me

https://youtu.be/3QQMZ5ltgTI

I'm super confused.

This thread was a great example of excellent discussion, keeping it about the topics and not about Zoners, but that went by the wayside when personal attacks started.

The subject is tough, people have deep and long felt feelings and opinions. There's no space here for attacks.

John Lennon's death is being commemorated today. Remember, Imagine.

Peace.

evolve

https://youtu.be/y_tqEOYRGOo

>>>>John Lennon's death is being commemorated today.

Useful trivia:  Dec. 8 is also the anniversary of the on stage murder of Dimebag Darrell by another deranged fan:

Carry on.

birds of a feather 

https://youtu.be/9sZ7qu8aFoA

BK, I apologize. I shouldn't have let things get personal. Enjoy your weekend.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrati...

>Peace in the israel-palestine conflict had already been difficult to achieve before Hamas’s barbarous October 7 attack and Israel’s military response. Now it seems almost impossible, but its essence is clearer than ever: Ultimately, a negotiation to establish a safe Israel beside a safe Palestinian state.

Whatever the enormous complexities and challenges of bringing about this future, one truth should be obvious among decent people: killing 1,400 people and kidnapping more than 200, including scores of civilians, was deeply wrong. The Hamas attack resembled a medieval Mongol raid for slaughter and human trophies—except it was recorded in real time and published to social media. Yet since October 7, Western academics, students, artists, and activists have denied, excused, or even celebrated the murders by a terrorist sect that proclaims an anti-Jewish genocidal program. Some of this is happening out in the open, some behind the masks of humanitarianism and justice, and some in code, most famously “from the river to the sea,” a chilling phrase that implicitly endorses the killing or deportation of the 9 million Israelis. It seems odd that one has to say: Killing civilians, old people, even babies, is always wrong. But today say it one must.

How can educated people justify such callousness and embrace such inhumanity? All sorts of things are at play here, but much of the justification for killing civilians is based on a fashionable ideology, “decolonization,” which, taken at face value, rules out the negotiation of two states—the only real solution to this century of conflict—and is as dangerous as it is false.

I always wondered about the leftist intellectuals who supported Stalin, and those aristocratic sympathizers and peace activists who excused Hitler. Today’s Hamas apologists and atrocity-deniers, with their robotic denunciations of “settler-colonialism,” belong to the same tradition but worse: They have abundant evidence of the slaughter of old people, teenagers, and children, but unlike those fools of the 1930s, who slowly came around to the truth, they have not changed their views an iota. The lack of decency and respect for human life is astonishing: Almost instantly after the Hamas attack, a legion of people emerged who downplayed the slaughter, or denied actual atrocities had even happened, as if Hamas had just carried out a traditional military operation against soldiers. October 7 deniers, like Holocaust deniers, exist in an especially dark place.

Hey Nancy - off topic but I was watching local news last night and there was a big story about "your" kidnapped / missing German Shepard. I think there is a warrant out for that  fake dog trainer lady who stole / mistreated the dogs. 

Yes, the local police here dragged their feet and let her get away only to cause more pain to others. Once other municipalities issued arrest warrants our local PD belatedly followed suit. The case drew national media coverage. You read about it first here ;)

The IDF has started to pump sea water into the Hamas tunnels.  Better than dropping bunker buster bombs on crowded neighborhoods.

153 countries want Netanyahu to slow his roll

wtf

currently watching The Vietnam War by ken burns, again!

history repeats, yadda yadda, right?!

smh

netanyahu 

perfect campaign launch

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-12/ty-article/.premium/israe...

>>President Joe Biden said he told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel was losing international support because of its “indiscriminate bombing” and that Netanyahu should change his government, which is dominated by hard-right parties.

Sounds like a Trump presidency would be in Israel's best interest.  

An interesting NY Times opinion. Copied & pasted:

OPINION
Antisemitism: A Guide for the Perplexed
Dec. 12, 2023, 7:00 p.m. ET

By Bret Stephens 

In a season of widespread condemnation of antisemitism, many struggle to define it. I can imagine having this conversation with any number of people trying to understand this age-old phenomenon:
Question: I’m having trouble making sense of some of the claims and counterclaims being made about what is, or isn’t, antisemitic speech and behavior. To be honest, it doesn’t help that so many prominent Jews have sharply different takes on the subject.
Answer: Two Jews, three opinions.
> That sounds like a stereotype.
It is. It’s also one of the few things that most Jews agree is true of us as people.
> OK, so in your opinion and a half, what is antisemitism?
It’s a conspiracy theory that holds that Jews are uniquely prone to use devious means to achieve malevolent ends and must therefore be opposed by any means necessary, including violence.
> Is that the commonly accepted definition?
No, it’s my own. A more widely cited definition comes from the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, which defines antisemitism , in part, as “a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews.” But the phrase “a certain perception” raises more questions than it answers.

> So why do you call antisemitism a conspiracy theory? Isn’t it just simple bigotry against Jews?
Few things are simple about antisemitism because few things are simple about Jews. We are a nation, a religion, a culture, an “other.” At various times we’ve also been thought of, falsely, as a race, most malevolently by the Nazis.
Antisemitism has expressed itself over the centuries as political opposition to Jews, religious hatred, cultural disdain, xenophobia or racism. It’s a shape-shifting virus that has adapted itself to the reigning prejudices of different eras. But a common thread linking one strain to another is that antisemitism typically takes the form of a conspiracy theory.
> Such as?
Deicide, for starters — the idea that Jews got the Romans to kill Jesus. Later, in the Middle Ages, came the belief that plagues were caused by Jews poisoning wells. Next, it was Jews using their financial power to start wars. Or their control of media and Hollywood to manipulate public opinion and degrade public morals. Or their influence in Congress and the White House to take America to war in the Middle East and advance Israeli interests.
> Isn’t there some truth to the last point? Weren’t figures like Paul Wolfowitz largely responsible for taking the United States to war in Iraq?

Actually, the people who took America to war in Iraq were George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. Blaming second-tier Jewish officials for the actions of top-tier Christian officials is classic antisemitism.
I hadn’t thought of that.
Nor did many of the people who leveled the charge 20 years ago. There’s a lot of unwitting antisemitism, just as there’s a lot of unwitting racism.
> But if antisemitism is a conspiracy theory, why do so many people call anti-Zionism a form of antisemitism? Whatever else you might say about anti-Zionism, it seems nothing if not direct.
Remember that antisemitism can also take the form of political hatred, and Zionism — that is, support for the existence of a Jewish state, as opposed to any of its policies — is today the principal expression of Jewish politics. But even anti-Zionism increasingly expresses itself as a conspiracy theory.

> How so?
Think of it this way: To the 19th-century German antisemite, Jews were impostors and swindlers — impostors, because they claimed to be citizens of Germany when antisemites claimed they were “Semites”; swindlers, because they were in the business of swindling “true” Germans out of their patrimony. To the 21st-century anti-Zionist, Jews are impostors and swindlers — impostors, because they claimed to have ancestral ties to the Holy Land when anti-Zionists claim they are colonizers from Europe; swindlers, because they were swindling Palestinians out of their patrimony.
In both cases, Jews are “the other.” The only difference is that past generations of antisemites accused Jews of being Middle Easterners while today’s anti-Zionists accuse Jews of being Europeans.
Interesting. But aren’t there ultra-Orthodox Jews who consider themselves anti-Zionists?
Yes. And if you’re one of those Jews, consider yourself acquitted of charges of antisemitism. Also, if you oppose every form of nationalism on principle, then you can honorably oppose Jewish nationalism. But you can’t support every nation’s right to exist except for the Jewish nation. That’s antisemitism.
> But if you support Palestinian nationhood, doesn’t that require opposition to Jewish nationhood?
It isn’t one or the other. It can and should be both. Israel came into existence in the most legitimate way possible — through a vote of the United Nations, which was immediately opposed by Arab states that set out to destroy the nascent Jewish state. In 2000, Ehud Barak, then Israel’s prime minister, offered Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat a Palestinian state. Arafat rejected the offer and 23 years of tragedy have ensued.
> Including the current tragedy in Gaza, in which Israel is being widely accused of committing genocide.
That accusation is also a form of antisemitism. It is manifestly false: If Israel really wanted to commit genocide in Gaza, it has the means to do so. Accusing Jews of the very crime of which they themselves were history’s greatest victim is a uniquely vile taunt. And the charge of genocide is so heinous that it licenses any form of violence to stop it, including the sort of massacre we saw on Oct. 7.
I also don’t agree with the genocide charge, per se, but I still think Israel’s response is inhumane, disproportionate and counterproductive.
I disagree, but that’s entirely legitimate criticism, just as it’s legitimate to object to Israel’s settlement policy in the West Bank or to Benjamin Netanyahu’s extremist government. Plenty of Israelis and American Jews do so as well.
> I used to think of antisemitism mainly as a right-wing phenomenon, connected to racists like David Duke. But now all the talk is of antisemitism among people who think of themselves as progressives. How did that happen?
Here’s a quote for you: “What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.” Joseph Goebbels? No, it’s Karl Marx.
There’s always been a virulent strain of left-wing antisemitism, which the Soviet Union practiced domestically and propagated internationally throughout much of the Cold War. Western academia picked up where the Soviets left off, stressing “decolonization” narratives in ways that obsessively implicated Israel while leaving nearly everyone else off the hook. When was the last time you heard of college students protesting Turkey’s violent mistreatment of Kurds or India’s abuses in Kashmir?
> I hope this isn’t an uncouth question but — why the Jews? Why has antisemitism mutated and persisted over so many centuries?
Jews have long stood for a set of ideas that, if not radical now, were radical in their time. Among them: monotheism, freedom, general literacy and what Jewish tradition calls “argument for the sake of heaven.”
Monotheism imposes a single ethical standard — such as “thou shalt not kill” — on all people, regardless of their country or culture. It’s the seed of the idea of universal rights. The story of the Book of Exodus has been an inspiration for all freedom-seeking people — “Let my people go!” Literacy, a prerequisite for becoming a Jewish adult, is the basis for the unshackling of the mind. And argument
 for the sake of heaven — inscribing dialogue and dissent into religious tradition — is central to any democratic society.
No wonder Jews have inspired so much loathing from every ruler, religion or ideology seeking to keep people in servitude and ignorance. Whenever antisemitism rears its head, it isn’t just Jews who are in the cross hairs. It’s freedom, education and human dignity — values all of us should share, whether you’re Jewish or not.

fuckin' a

>Sounds like a Trump presidency would be in Israel's best interest.
 

no, it would only  be in Bibi's best interest- he needs to stay in office to avoid criminal prosecution. 
 

his policies are not in Israel's best interest 

and of course Donnie embraces Bibi.. just as he embraces Putin, and other  authoritarian figures. 

Thanks for the response Nancy.  I don't know anything about Israel politics.  Do you think the war would be different if Netanyahu was not in power?

No doubt about it, Bibi was/is bad news for Israel and an obstacle to peace.

And yes, Bibi  benefits from a Trump win. 

When antisemitic voters fuck up this election there's no doubt that we will have an Authoritarian regime here

Already the GOP are withdrawing their support for Ukraine because Trump's fondness for Putin. Palestinians and Ukrainians will be slaughtered in greater numbers. Because., Biden  isn't a good candidate?!  Same fucked  excuse these fools gave us when they refused to support Hillary. Morons are going to hand Trump the win. 

>. Sounds like a Trump presidency would be in Israel's best interest.

On November 22nd at Mar-a-Lago Donald had dinner with Ye and Nick Fuentes, who is among the nation’s most vocal Holocaust deniers and one of the rare white supremacists with popular name recognition, The rapper formerly known as Kanye West's antisemitic public statements have grown increasingly extreme.  Fuentes has suggested that Jews leave the country and that the military be sent into Black neighborhoods. When, at dinner, Fuentes advised Donald Trump to go off-script and ad-lib more often during his campaign speeches.  Donald reportedly told the other guests: “I really like this guy. He gets me.”

Also Donald said there were "very fine people on both sides" of clashes at a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. The "Unite the Right" rally took place Aug. 11 and 12, 2017, in Charlottesville.  White nationalists participants chanted anti-Semitic, Nazi-associated phrases and clashed with counterprotesters.

 Truth be told, Donald's political beliefs seem to change day by day.  Donald's political policies are principally devoted to advancing his own popularity and power. The Don criticized Jewish Americans who support Democrats, saying that it "shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty."  Some leaders in the Jewish community were outraged and said the president was promoting anti-Semitic stereotypes. He does seem to like Bibi, which may be far from the best thing for Israelis. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights

The only thing Trump likes more than antisemites is Authoritarian and Fascist leaning Politicians. 
 

Gotta give him credit for uniting the far left and far right who are poised to hand him another term as President.. err Dictator.

The only thing Bibi cares about is avoiding prison  time for his crimes. Pretty much the only reason Trump is running again too. Both would sell out their county for profit and absolute power. 

Both have sold out their country.

Bibi is hell-bent on destroying Hamas and gives no fucks about the fall-out. The other day Lebanon's president (I think) said he's doing as much harm to Israel with his response as the actual 10/7 attack, and he's right.

I just read that Hamas support in the West Bank has gone from 12% to 38%, and Abbas' support is at an all-time low. Bibi doesn't want a 2-state solution and he's knowingly and willingly lessening support for that among Palestinians. It's like he wants to perpetuate the cycle of violence or generations to come.

Disturbing yet fascinating NY Times article. 
Looking at it from a very human level. 
 

Apology, Tears and Terror: A Former Hostage Recounts a 7-Week Ordeal
Chen Goldstein-Almog and three of her children were freed in late November. Her husband and eldest daughter were killed in Hamas’s Oct. 7 attacks in Israel.

By Anat Schwartz
reporting from Tel Aviv
        Dec. 15, 2023

The strangest part of her seven-week ordeal, said Chen Goldstein-Almog, formerly an Israeli hostage of Hamas, were the long, almost intimate conversations she had with her captors.
They talked about their families, their lives and the extreme danger they all faced.
One of the gunmen holding her even apologized for the killing of her husband and one of her daughters by other Hamas gunmen, she said.
“It was a mistake and against the Quran,” he told her, Ms. Goldstein-Almog remembered.
She said a long silence followed, and the room she and three of her children were being held in immediately filled with tension.
“I didn’t respond,” she said. She was distraught about their deaths, but at that moment, she said, “I didn’t feel I could express any negative feelings.”
Ms. Goldstein-Almog, 48, and the three children were kidnapped on Oct. 7 from the Kfar Aza kibbutz, near the border of Gaza and one of the worst hit during the Hamas terrorist attacks. Her husband and eldest daughter were killed.
She and the surviving children — another daughter, Agam, 17, and two sons, Gal, 11, and Tal, 9 — were released in late November as part of the exchange of prisoners between Israel and Hamas that has since ceased.
In an interview this week, she shared details about her ordeal.
She said she and the children were held together, treated “respectfully” and not physically harmed. But she said that over the course of various moves during their captivity, she had met other hostages who were badly treated, including two women who said they were sexually abused.
Mostly, they were held in a room in an apartment in Gaza, she said, with the windows closed except for a bit of fresh air in the early mornings. But the heavily armed captors also moved Ms. Goldstein-Almog and her children to different apartments, tunnels, a mosque, even a destroyed supermarket, she said.
With the Israeli military pounding Gaza, each transfer was terrifying, and the men holding them, she said, didn’t always seem to know what to do.
Describing one move, she said: “It was the middle of the night. Everything was dark. They started deliberating among themselves. I could see the helplessness on their faces.”
“When we were out into the street, in total darkness, there was a shot above us,” she continued. “We were pressed against the wall, and I could see a laser pointer, as if we were being targeted from above.”
And she was thinking: That’s our air force up there.
“It was crazy,” she said, “this absurdity.”
Her conversations with her guards sometimes went on for hours, she said, maybe because she was once a social worker and knew how to keep someone in a long, deep conversation — her only way of trying to make sure, she said, that she and the children would be safe.
The guards taught her son Gal 250 words in Arabic to keep him occupied and brought him a notebook to study. She said the family and the guards regularly discussed what to eat. Most days they survived off pita bread with cheese, usually feta. In the early days there were also a few vegetables. She said the guards told her they were members of Hamas.
The lead guard seemed educated and spoke Hebrew, she said. In the apartment where they stayed the longest, he sometimes invited the family to join in cooking in the kitchen, though even in these moments, the guards carried pistols. The guards would escort them to the bathroom on request, and allowed them to sleep.
Each member of the family had emotional ups and downs. Sometimes they would talk about what happened on Oct. 7, or would realize no cease-fire was near. The captors didn’t like it when the children cried, she said. They asked immediately for them to stop.
“And if for a moment, I would sit and sink in my thoughts,” she said, the lead captor “would directly ask me what I was thinking. I couldn’t move from room to room without an armed guard accompanying me. Once, my two sons were arguing, and the guard raised his voice at one of them, which was scary.”
There were even moments when the guards cried in front of them, she said, worried about their own families.
“We were in daily danger,” she said. “It was fear at a level we didn’t know existed.”
She couldn’t stop replaying the death of her husband, Nadav, 48, whom she started dating in high school and who was killed in front of their eyes along with their oldest daughter, Yam, 20, a soldier just two months from the end of her service.
At the end of their captivity, the lead guard turned to Ms. Goldstein-Almog and gave her a warning: Don’t go back to your kibbutz, he said. Don’t return to a place so close to Gaza. Go to Tel Aviv or somewhere farther north, she remembers him saying. Because we are coming back.
Ms. Goldstein-Almog’s response?
“Next time you come,” she said she told them, “don’t throw a grenade. Just knock on the door.”

Speaking of hostages, this just happened.  Three of the Israeli hostages managed to escape or otherwise were abandoned.  They finally ran into the IDF and began waiving a white flag and called for help in Hebrew.  The IDF gunned them down, killing all three.

Tragic but gives some insight on how the IDF is behaving in Gaza.

careful, wouldn't want to be labeled antisemitic for calling balls and strikes

the reason why I say that ken

you have a likable personality

but not everything you say is gospel

post a link with comments like above ^^^

let the rest of us decide, not just take your word for it

Nice try.. that's not why people are being called out for posting antisemitic tropes. 

let's walk and chew gum at the same time, shall we
 

Been following Israeli media since Oct. 7.   Intresting to see the different perspectives even among Israelis.  People there are not happy with what happened:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-778272

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-16/ty-article-live/hundreds-...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-december-16-2023/

jpost

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-jerusalem-post/

haaretz

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/haaretz/

the times of isreal

 https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/

Monday, Monday...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KP-CRXROorw

~~

lmao a bill maher clip and a cartoon about how great the bible is. fucking idiot

The pro Hamas faction seems to get super personal in their attacks.

>> The pro Hamas faction seems to get super personal in their attacks.

In their defense, it must be difficult worshiping Hamas.

Perhaps their people communication skills would benifit

with some tweaking.

Here's the basic premise, which makes any real discussion impossible:

Israel has no right to exist. Hamas has a right to kick out the genocidal colonists and take back the land, from the river to the sea, by any means possible. Anyone who supports Israel's right to exist is genocidal and a horrible person.

They refuse to accept that there are people who believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself, but who also disagree with how Israel is going about this.There's a weird mutual exclusivity.

At the same time, they generally deny that Hamas explicitly wants to destroy Israel and all Jews. They vehemently complain about the existence of a Jewish ethnostate, yet accept Muslim ethnostates and are okay with a new, Palestinian ethnostate. I've heard multiple pro Hamas people complain about the other POV being binary, while theirs is actually just singular. What you're left with is personal attacks. They whine about getting labeled as "anti semites" for disagreeing with Israeli policies, but they almost never even address policies. It's just slogans like "genocidal," with an underlying belief that Israel has no right to exist.

Keep in mind, although worldwide antisemitism has seen a documented rise, a few weeks ago Daylight denied that altogether.

Someone we all know once wrote "you ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know."

It is sad that there are people who think that the atrocities that where perpetrated on October 7th are not only justifiable they are worthy of support.  

meanwhile 21k civilians have been killed.....and remember, jesus don't like killin', no matter what the reason for...

The death count of the civilians is terrible and most agree that Bibi is off his rocker with it. It's fucked up and wrong. I'm not playing that "whaddaboutism" game. I've heard people say, "If Israel wasn't there then there wouldn't be hostages and 1,200 dead." I venture to guess that a few on this board feel that way. That's also fucked up.

If it matters, it's probably closer to 13,000 civilians and 8,000 enemy combatants. It's important to note that they aren't all civilians. It's like that stupid meme that someone here posted, "The average age of a person killed in Gaza is 5 years old." It makes a great soundbite, but it's mathematically impossible. None if this means Im condoning any of the civilian deaths.

>?If it matters,??<<

i'm done debating or discussing things with you nutballs. 

Correct