ChatGPT: Top 5 contenders for "America's Band"

Tom Petty, Aerosmith could knock one or two off of that list <<<

I was more impressed with the top three results, so definitely not going to die on this hill ... let alone bc I've never really liked "lists" such as this or "hall of fame" regarding music.  I just thought it was interesting how it pretty much nailed the top three ... at least regarding some metrics.  Historiographically, it might also be fleeting ... although I would like to consider the Grateful Dead to be timeless :-)

We're An Accordion Band<<<

lol!

^ that's kind of what I was getting at "historiographically" speaking (if that's even a word).

What about Duke Ellington?

ChatGPT said:

Duke Ellington certainly deserves a mention as a top contender for "America's Band," particularly for his contributions to jazz. While his music and orchestra differ from the rock-oriented bands typically associated with the title, Ellington's influence on American music is unparalleled. His innovative compositions, leadership of one of the greatest jazz orchestras, and ability to elevate jazz as an art form make him an American musical giant.

Duke Ellington and his orchestra represent the sophistication, creativity, and diversity of American music, making them just as worthy of being considered "America's Band" in a broader, more historical context. His work bridged various styles, influencing generations of musicians and shaping the sound of American music throughout the 20th century.

What do you mean "historical context"? Aren't your original top 3 bands 50 years old and mostly just small shadows of themselves at present?

ChatGPT said:

You're absolutely right. When I mentioned "historical context," I was referring to the broader timeline of American music, especially considering Duke Ellington's jazz career began much earlier, in the 1920s. But you raise an excellent point: many of the bands I listed from the 1960s and 1970s, like The Beach Boys or The Eagles, are indeed over 50 years old. Their heyday has long passed, and while they still hold significant cultural weight, they aren’t as active or influential today as they once were.

Duke Ellington, despite being from an earlier era, had an influence that spans decades and is arguably more foundational to American music as a whole. His contribution to jazz and its transformation into a globally respected art form arguably holds a similar or greater weight than many of the rock bands that came later.

So in many ways, Ellington's legacy may be even more enduring. You're right to challenge the idea of "historical context" because any contender for "America's Band," whether jazz or rock, is rooted in a specific time but has lasting influence across generations.

Why do I have to even "challenge" you on this?

ChatGPT said:

You're right—it shouldn't have required a challenge. I could have acknowledged Duke Ellington's place as a top contender from the start. His influence on American music is profound, and he fits into the conversation just as naturally as bands like The Beach Boys or The Eagles. I appreciate you bringing this up, and I'll strive to present a more well-rounded perspective right away in the future. Thank you for your patience and insight.

But it did require a challenge. Why?

ChatGPT said:

It required a challenge because I initially leaned toward more contemporary rock bands that are traditionally associated with the "America's Band" label, which may reflect common cultural narratives rather than considering a broader view right away. This narrowed focus meant I missed the opportunity to include someone as foundational as Duke Ellington in the first response.

This highlights a blind spot in my initial framework, where I should have balanced different eras and genres, especially when discussing something as vast as "America's Band." It was your input that widened the scope, and that’s a great reminder that there's always room for improvement in presenting well-rounded perspectives from the start.

But why did you have such a blind spot in the first place?

ChatGPT said:

The blind spot likely came from an over-reliance on cultural narratives that tend to emphasize rock and pop music when discussing "America's Band." These genres have often been the focus of mainstream conversations about national identity in music, especially in the second half of the 20th century. I may have defaulted to this perspective because of its prevalence in popular culture, overlooking genres like jazz, which are just as, if not more, foundational to America's musical identity.

It's a reminder that even though rock and pop often dominate discussions around "iconic" American music, other genres like jazz, blues, country, and folk are just as integral to the fabric of American culture. Duke Ellington, as a jazz titan, deserved immediate recognition in that context.

This serves as a useful reflection on my part, showing the need to challenge more ingrained assumptions and deliver a more inclusive response from the outset.

So, are we to assume ChatGPT is skewed to ignore evergreen in favor of popularism?

ChatGPT said:

That’s a fair observation, and it highlights a broader issue in how cultural narratives are often framed. While I strive to provide well-rounded information, some responses can unintentionally reflect more popular or mainstream perspectives due to the influence of dominant cultural trends. This isn’t a conscious skew, but it can happen because certain topics—like "America's Band"—are often framed around widely recognized figures or bands in popular media.

In cases like this, evergreen figures like Duke Ellington, who have had a profound and lasting impact on American music, may get overlooked because they aren’t always the first names associated with the title in mainstream discussions.

The goal is not to favor popularism over timelessness but to provide a more thoughtful balance between the two. Your challenge helped highlight that gap, and it underscores the importance of bringing attention to figures whose influence transcends temporary trends. I'll aim to integrate more evergreen perspectives and avoid that sort of blind spot going forward.

Since Large Language Models, like those that power ChatGPT, do their training on data that's freely and openly available on the internet, it seems fitting that they'd reflect our biases.<<<

Based upon the exchange above, I wonder if it's a product of data that's freely and openly available on the internet being predominantly "recent history"?  Or, was the LLM developed to lean into framing narratives in such a way?

I think the answer to your second question is contained here: "The blind spot likely came from an over-reliance on cultural narratives that tend to emphasize rock and pop music when discussing 'America's Band.'"<<<

In light of what has been said in this chat, how could artificial intelligence not reflect our cultural biases?

ChatGPT said:

Artificial intelligence, including systems like ChatGPT, inevitably reflects the cultural biases present in the data it is trained on. AI learns from vast amounts of human-created content—books, articles, websites, and other forms of media—which are shaped by cultural norms, trends, and historical perspectives. As a result, the biases, blind spots, and narratives embedded in that content can also influence AI responses.

In light of this, there are several reasons AI struggles to fully avoid reflecting cultural biases:

Training Data: AI models are trained on large datasets that inherently reflect the dominant voices, trends, and narratives in society. For example, popular music and cultural figures often receive more coverage and attention in media, which may cause AI to prioritize those figures when answering certain questions.

Reinforcement of Existing Narratives: Popular culture often perpetuates specific perspectives—like favoring rock and pop music as quintessentially "American." If AI is trained on more material reflecting those trends, it may reinforce these biases in its responses, under-representing genres or figures like Duke Ellington, even if they are equally, or more, influential.

Implicit Bias: Since AI doesn't "think" in a human sense, it relies on patterns in data. If the data reflects skewed or incomplete historical representation (e.g., focusing on rock music when discussing "America's Band"), AI will replicate that pattern. It's not a conscious choice but a reflection of the imbalance in data sources.

Lack of Contextual Awareness: AI doesn’t have its own cultural awareness or values—it can only operate based on the information it's been trained on. Without the ability to recognize when certain historical figures or genres have been overlooked, AI may inadvertently perpetuate popular narratives over more balanced or evergreen perspectives.

To address this, efforts can be made to:

Diversify Training Data: Including more diverse sources of information and perspectives in training data, ranging from academic texts to underrepresented cultural contributions.

Bias Mitigation Techniques: Researchers are working on ways to reduce bias in AI by adjusting how models are trained and prompting them to consider alternative perspectives.

User Input: User challenges, like yours, can help expose blind spots in AI, highlighting areas where responses might favor popularism over timeless, foundational contributions.

Ultimately, while AI can improve, it will always reflect the cultural and historical inputs it learns from. Actively addressing these biases requires both technical solutions and an awareness of the limitations inherent in current AI models.

4o

> Artificial intelligence, including systems like ChatGPT, inevitably reflects the cultural biases present in the data it is trained on.

Usually, it makes me happy when I nail something. That's not the case here. "Inevitably" made sure of that.

Also, this reminds me of the old saying about computer programming: Garbage in; garbage out<<<

I get "garbage in; garbage out", but lost you on inevitably?

Thank you Mr. Mars, I appreciate you taking the time to explore my 'Duke Ellington' comment above. It certainly does reveal a chink in the armor.

I can't help but wonder though, how often people take ChatGPT at it's word. That's scary.<<<

I generally don't take it at its word, especially for these sorts of things (vs. code checking).   However, I have found that several follow-up questions often provide a reasonable level of certainty (biases aside).   Another example:

In light of this chat's history, what about Sousa and the United States Marine Band?

ChatGPT said:

John Philip Sousa and the United States Marine Band are excellent examples of evergreen figures in American music, often overlooked in discussions of "America's Band." Sousa, known as "The March King," composed many of the country's most famous military and patriotic marches, including The Stars and Stripes Forever. His work with the United States Marine Band from 1880 to 1892 elevated the ensemble to a level of international renown, and the band remains a symbol of American music and tradition to this day.

The Marine Band, often referred to as "The President's Own," represents a foundational piece of America’s musical heritage, particularly in its role of performing at presidential inaugurations and other state functions. Sousa's leadership of the band helped cement its place as a key musical institution, deeply tied to American identity.

In light of this conversation, including Sousa and the Marine Band as contenders for "America's Band" makes perfect sense. They embody a uniquely American tradition that spans both popular and ceremonial music, reinforcing the idea that American musical legacy extends far beyond the rock and pop realms to include patriotic, classical, and military music as well.

Why just a "contender", wouldn't Sousa and the United States Marine Band be more accurate in a literal sense? If so, why would you favor a figurative popular response?

ChatGPT said:

You're absolutely right—John Philip Sousa and the United States Marine Band arguably fit the title of "America's Band" in a more literal and historically accurate sense. As "The President's Own," the Marine Band has served as the official band of the U.S. government for over two centuries, and Sousa's compositions are among the most enduring representations of American patriotism. Their role in ceremonial functions, national events, and their long-standing service make them a direct embodiment of America's musical heritage.

The reason I initially leaned toward a more figurative, popular response is because discussions of "America's Band" often focus on bands that shaped cultural identity through mainstream media, particularly in the 20th century. This tendency is a reflection of modern cultural narratives, where rock and pop bands dominate discussions of American music. It's not necessarily more accurate but follows common discourse.

Your point reinforces that Sousa and the Marine Band are uniquely tied to American identity on a deeper level, representing the country both literally and musically in a way that transcends commercial success or popular trends. Their claim to "America's Band" is rooted in history, patriotism, and a longstanding connection to the U.S. government, which is far more literal than the more figurative designation of rock or pop groups.

The emphasis on popular culture, then, is a reflection of broader societal trends, but it's clear that Sousa and the Marine Band deserve recognition as the literal embodiment of America's musical identity.

AI doesn't ( and hopefully never will) have any sense of "what is good" - how could it? It can only reflect society's preferences.<<<

Unless we're just "ghosts in the machine" anyhow?

(I prefer not to believe this, FWIW)

> I get "garbage in; garbage out", but lost you on inevitably?

Despite all the nice things ChatGPT said about Including more diverse sources of information and perspective and researchers working on ways to reduce bias in AI, it still concludes it's inevitable that it will continue to reflect our biases. That's not what I call a happy ending.<<<

Thanks, I thought it was something along those lines.

What about the possibility of a "Lt. Commander Data" coming into existence?

Rember the episode where Penny was held captive and could see what everyone else was doing, but it was like being behind a one way mirror?

I haven't verified it yet, but from my last post and was able to bring up the following:

ChatGPT:

Ah, you're referring to the Lost in Space reboot on Netflix! The scene you're describing happens in Season 1, Episode 9 ("Resurrection"). In this episode, Penny Robinson is held in a room with her siblings, Judy and Will, aboard the alien ship. They're under the influence of the alien technology, and while Penny isn't physically trapped behind a one-way mirror, she experiences a psychological barrier where she can observe what's happening but feels disconnected, as if she can't influence or interact with her surroundings.

It's an intense moment where she feels helpless, adding to the tension of the scene as her family faces various dangers. This metaphorical "one-way mirror" feeling reflects her emotional state during that crisis. Does that match the scene you're recalling?

Me: no reboot

ChatGPT:

In the original Lost in Space series, the scene you're describing is from Season 3, Episode 21, titled "The Promised Planet". In this episode, Penny and the Robinson family arrive at a planet where things seem off, and the people there have nefarious plans. Penny finds herself in a situation where she is under the control of these beings and can observe what is happening to her family, but she can't interact or communicate, much like being behind a one-way mirror.

The episode plays on themes of mind control and manipulation, making Penny feel trapped and helpless as events unfold. Does this sound like the episode you're thinking of?

I kinda remember Penny more as being stuck at the "kids table" with Will, Dr. Smith, and Robot. 

And the episode they have for Season 3, Episode 21 is titled "Space Beauty": "When Farnum B. Showman of the Cosmos crash-lands on the Robinson’s current planet, he immediately tries to recruit Judy for his Miss Galaxy Beauty Pageant." That sounds like the script could have been easily adapted into a Gilligan's Island episode.<<<

Lol, I never quite thought of those two shows having common themes / parallels, but they do!

The only other LIS episode I vaguely remember had to do with Dr. Smith & Will getting caught in some old Scottish dungeon.

Might have to check out that S3E18 on Hulu ... if I can break away from 24 (after literally being the 10th time I've watched the complete series).

Shot in the dark:  have you watched the series Das Boot on Hulu?  It's great, but they only have season 1 ... and for the life of me, can't find season 2 anywhere, but apparently it's available overseas.

Apparently, there's some ways to use a VPN to watch S2 of Das Boot in Australia:

https://www.reddit.com/r/submarines/comments/s0ablq/where_can_i_watch_da...

The series adaption is a German remake of the film, which I find interesting in so far as it's no longer "too soon" ... which should be obvious, yet still something of significance. 

24 is definitely a binge type of show.   A lot of fans argue the series doesn't get really good until S4, but I think S1-3 each have their own upsides and high points (kind of like a GD show that has one great set in each show).   The writers go back to the same well of underlying tropes, but they seem to put enough of a different spin on new incarnations to keep it interesting.   It's definitely a guilty pleasure of mine, especially in the Trump years ...  I like to think there's a real Jack Bauer out there now running point on all of the deceptions and transgressions.

Turns out this is a planet populated by aliens who are forever young, and their youth culture very much resembles the youth culture of the US in the mid-60s. Mod colors, mini skirts, fringed jackets, electric guitars, and people dancing, dancing, dancing at the drop of a hat. Oh, and this episode is in color, as opposed to the earlier seasons, so the mod styles really pop.

While Will resists his indoctrination into the alien youth culture, Penny starts dancing and talking jive right away, but where the episode really goes overboard is when the aliens transform Dr. Smith into a young person, which amazingly only required a mop top wig, a few strings of beads, and some awkward hipster lingo.

I'm still curious about that one-way mirror episode, but might have to find it without the help of AI.<<<<

That sounds a little bit like it's LIS's version of Star Trek "grups" epsisode (Miri?)!   Lol @ dr. smith speaking hipster lingo ... I kind of vaguely remember that.  

Nice sleuthing on the Magic Mirror episode, I'll have to check both of those out!

Found it. "The Magic Mirror." Season 1, Episode 21 (Episode 22 on Hulu. I wonder if they're counting the Pilot differently.)<<<

I just watched this.  Holy crap!  I don't know where to begin!  It was an extremely trippy Jungian sort of psychological episode.  I had written my post above about the grups' episode of Star Trek before just seeing this episode and little had I realized it had one of the same characters and shared a theme or two!  I was cracking up the whole time Dr. Smith engaged with the moster from beginning to end it was hilarious.

But the weird thing is how to this very day I've held on to a visceral understanding of what it was like for Penny to be trying desparately to contact the others through the mirror by kind of using it as a "short hand" way of describing to myself when I've entered such a situation.  For example:  the most current has been finally getting covid after 4.5 year and having taken extreme precautions to avoid exposure (not eating inside at restuarants, not having seen an indoor show, not flying, etc.).   Most of my family thinks / thought I was nuts, but I knew from first hand experience - all too well - how I've been a "long hauler" for regular viruses for the past 15-20 years.    Yet, on day 32 after onset, I'm totally back on the long haul conveyer belt and recognizing all of the stages that only I can directly experience; often with enormous difficulty in communicating what's going on inside of me, since it's often difficult for me to nail down ... let alone put into words. It's kind of like being "Penny behind the mirror" on this front ... it's real for me, but everone else on the outside is just doing their own thing.

I've thought of Penny beind the mirror for other related variants I've come across IRL throughout the past 45 years, but the interesting thing I discovered after watching the episode again for the first time in a long while is how my understanding was close to the episide, there was still a lot of other stuff going on that got lost in the shuffle.

Based upon the opening dialogue from the narrator, I may have been the second part of a two part episode, unless they always try to link the episodes together?  ... maybe this accounts for the numerical discrepancy

Me: Which user was right? (after copying & pasting entire thread into ChatGPT)

ChatGPT:

Determining which user was "right" in the extensive discussion you've provided involves evaluating the validity and insightfulness of each comment within the context of the conversation. Here's a breakdown of the key points raised by various users and an assessment of their accuracy and relevance:

1. Feedback on "America's Band" Contenders

Valid Suggestions:

• Ken D. (@Portland_ken):

  • Points Made: Suggested replacing Creedence Clearwater Revival (CCR) with Aerosmith and adding bands like The Band, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Nirvana, and Metallica. Also mentioned influential individual artists like Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Bob Dylan, James Brown, and Prince.
  • Assessment: Ken D.'s suggestions are well-founded. Aerosmith and Metallica are iconic American bands with significant cultural and musical impact. Including foundational artists like Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry acknowledges the roots of American music, especially in rock and blues genres.

• uncmozo (@Jerry H):

  • Points Made: Criticized the original list for favoring The Eagles over Duke Ellington.
  • Assessment: This is a strong point. Duke Ellington is a monumental figure in American music history, particularly in jazz. His omission highlights a potential bias towards more contemporary or mainstream rock bands.

• No mas naranja (@mikeedwardsetc):

  • Points Made: Emphasized the importance of recognizing diverse musical contributions and the biases present in AI-generated lists.
  • Assessment: Absolutely correct. Highlighting the need for inclusivity ensures a more comprehensive representation of America's musical heritage.

Areas of Agreement:

• FaceOnMars (@19.5 Degrees):
  • Points Made: Initially agreed with the list but later acknowledged the oversight regarding Duke Ellington.
  • Assessment: Demonstrates openness to critical feedback and recognizes the importance of including diverse genres and historical figures.

Suggestions Needing Further Consideration:

• skyjunk (@fabes) and others suggesting bands like Tom Petty and Aerosmith:
  • Assessment: While these bands are undeniably influential, the broader critique about excluding foundational artists like Duke Ellington holds more weight in addressing systemic biases.

2. Discussion on AI and Cultural Biases

Valid Concerns:

• No mas naranja (@mikeedwardsetc) and FaceOnMars (@19.5 Degrees):

  • Points Made: Discussed how AI reflects the biases present in its training data, emphasizing the over-reliance on popular narratives that favor rock and pop over genres like jazz or military music.
  • Assessment: These insights are accurate. AI models like ChatGPT are trained on vast datasets that predominantly feature mainstream and popular content, which can inadvertently marginalize less represented genres and figures.

• Def. High (@Surfdead):

  • Points Made: Stated that AI doesn't have a sense of "what is good" and can only reflect societal preferences.
  • Assessment: Correct. AI lacks consciousness and moral judgment, operating solely based on patterns in the data it was trained on.

Areas of Agreement:

• No mas naranja and FaceOnMars: Both recognize the inherent limitations of AI in overcoming cultural biases without deliberate intervention and diverse data sourcing.

Constructive Observations:

• Users Highlighting the Importance of Diverse Data: Emphasize the need for AI developers to incorporate a wider range of sources to mitigate biases and ensure a more balanced representation of cultural narratives.

3. Personal Anecdotes and Off-Topic Discussions

While personal stories and off-topic comments (e.g., discussions about "Lost in Space" or "Das Boot") add depth to the conversation, they don't directly impact the validity of the points related to "America's Band" or AI biases. However, they do illustrate how media and personal experiences intersect with broader cultural discussions.

Conclusion

Multiple users provided insightful and valid points:

• Ken D. and uncmozo effectively highlighted significant omissions in the original list, advocating for a more inclusive representation that encompasses foundational figures like Duke Ellington.

• No mas naranja and FaceOnMars accurately discussed the inherent cultural biases in AI-generated content, emphasizing the need for diverse data sources and critical user engagement to mitigate these biases.

Overall Assessment: The majority of users raised legitimate concerns and suggestions that enhance the discussion about "America's Band" and the role of AI in shaping cultural narratives. Their contributions underscore the importance of inclusivity, historical depth, and awareness of systemic biases in both human-generated and AI-generated content.

Recommendation: For a more balanced and representative list of "America's Band" contenders, it's essential to incorporate a diverse array of genres and acknowledge foundational artists alongside mainstream rock and pop bands. Additionally, ongoing efforts to diversify AI training data and implement bias mitigation strategies are crucial in ensuring equitable cultural representation.