Confederate Monument Removal

Read an article in the NY Times on this last week and dug deeper online afterwards. It seems the public workers who are removing the statues are in full flack gear and helmets to protect from gunshots. There is also a movement afoot to remove all statues of anybody who once owned slaves, which would include most of our founding fathers because it is an affront to the black community. The movement has some traction in other places and some are calling for the destruction of the Washington Monument in DC as well.

While I understand how some might feel that way, all those people are a part of our history. Not sure if there is an answer that will satisfy everyone.

Left you a message in the NOLA thread, Dave.

I think they should remove this statue of George Washington I saw in NYC due to excessive camel toe.

There is also a movement afoot to remove all statues of anybody who once owned slaves

Trump is going to be crushed about Andrew Jackson.

Apparently, they were scared of having a public referendum.

Those statues were put up after the last Union troops left at the end of Reconstruction.  

Monuments to treasonous revolt.

Just like the Confederate iconography in the fifties, sending a message of racism.

No referendum needed, some actions are civil liberty derived to protect individuals from the tyranny of the majority.

Should only be seen in history books, museums, and on private property of racists.

speaking of treasonous revolutionaries:

American tourists are often surprised that there is a statue of their first president in the heart of London at Trafalgar Square. The statue shows Washington holding a bundle of 13 fasces which represent the original 13 states of the newly created United States of America. There is a popular legend that Washington, whose family came from the North East of England, had said he would never set foot on British soil again so some American soil was put under the statue comply with his wishes. It is a replica of an original by Jean Antoine Houdon and was given to Britain by the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1924.

https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/around-london/statues-6-american-presidents-london/ 

>> Those statues were put up after the last Union troops left at the end of Reconstruction.  

That Jefferson Davis statue was erected in 1911, a generation after Reconstruction ended.

I wonder if they are going to sandblast Stone Mountain?

>I think they should remove this statue of George Washington I saw in NYC due to excessive camel toe.

No shit!  Lol.  Who knew ole Georgie was binary?

>>>>I wonder if they are going to sandblast Stone Mountain?

Does the City of New Orleans have authority in this case?

>> Does the City of New Orleans have authority in this case?

No.

From the CNN report:

"The mayor's office said the city has secured private funding to remove the moments. Landrieu said the statues will be put in storage while the city looks for a suitable place to display them, such as a museum.

I can stand behind keeping the statues in a place that people who want to see them can visit.

I visited Manassas Battlefield National Park and had no problem with the statue of Stonewall Jackson.

It fit the setting perfectly:

Battle of Manasses.   Jacked up horse and Stoneballs.  No thanks.

>> I can stand behind keeping the statues in a place that people who want to see them can visit.

They were already where people wanted to see them: "LSU's survey shows 73 percent of Louisiana residents oppose monuments being removed. "

I completely agree that many have to go simply because they glorify slave owners. 

However, Robert E. Lee didn't own slaves and his engineering work on the levees around New Orleans still survive and are protecting the city. That's about the only argument to keep a monument, imo. 

I'd like to see a survey of New Orleans residents. Who cares what folks in Baton Rouge, Shreveport or Bunkee have to say about New Orleans.

>> I'd like to see a survey of New Orleans residents. 

In 2015, the mayor initiated a discussion on whether to move four Confederate monuments in the city, culminating with a City Council vote in December to declare them nuisances. The UNO poll asked whether voters favored or opposed removing the monuments.

Overall, 50 percent support removing them, 31 percent oppose and 19 percent didn't answer. The answers correlated largely to race, with African-Americans in favor and most whites opposed.

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/04/new_orleans_voters_less_s...

>>> I think they should remove this statue of George Washington I saw in NYC due to excessive camel toe<<<

What are your thoughts on Billy Penn in Philly?

They had to remove an old statue of George Washington at the Capitol quite a while back because it was shirtless and "indecent".   It also happened to have him in the traditional Baphomet pose, but it was the bare chest that got it pulled.

>Overall, 50 percent support removing them, 31 percent oppose and 19 percent didn't answer. The answers correlated largely to race, with African-Americans in favor and most whites opposed.

How about that?! The people whose ancestors were enslaved  by the Confederacy weren't too keen on seeing the slave supporting losers* being honored in public spaces. 

*they lost the war they were fighting for the right to enslave people

Yeah, I know - the war was about State's Rights...the State's Right to own people. 

>>>>However, Robert E. Lee didn't own slaves and his engineering work on the levees around New Orleans still survive and are protecting the city.

I could've sworn that I saw video of the NOLA mayor telling a reporter that Lee never set foot in NOLA, thus arguing that the statue had no relevance for that city.  Maybe I can find that on the youtoobs.

ender, I still support having those statues placed in an area, perhaps together, at a destination (museum? private park?), rather than prominent public/city spaces, given that half of the city's voters supported their removal.  I DO support keeping historic relics somewhere for further contemplation to those who seek them out.

A Confederate History Museum? Sure why not, after all Germany recently opened a Nazi History Museum. Much better solution than say erecting statues of Hitler in a public square. Or American Cities allowing Confederate soldiers statues and icons to remain standing. 

https://news.artnet.com/exhibitions/germany-opens-nazi-museum-293503

>The goal, as per the museum’s website, is to “address the city’s National Socialist past and the ramifications of Nazi dictatorship,” providing a means of “dealing with Germany’s desertion of civilized norms” and reminding visitors that “democracy and tolerance cannot be taken for granted, but have to be constantly secured and shaped anew.”

This point was underscored by the presence of 30 neo-Nazi demonstrators who reportedly gathered outside the ceremony to celebrate.

From ABC News:

The four monuments were erected between 1884 and 1915 to “celebrate the ‘Cult of the Lost Cause,’” a movement city officials say promotes white supremacy.

So yeah, a bit of artistic license, they did not erect them as the dust was settling from the cavalry leaving town.

Most historians agree that it took as long as until 1890 to fully dismantle Reconstruction and citizen rights for blacks that were made legal. The monuments were in sync time wise with disenfranchisement for black citizens across the region. 

So yeah...racist horsehit and being butthurt over loss of slaves and the return to white privilege. 

The vast majority would have voted against votes for women, ending slavery, civil rights, and ending denial of due process for LGBT folks.  Some of which is ongoing today.  Fucking Alabama passed laws in the last two weeks making it ok for adoption agencies to discriminate against not only LGBT but single people and even on religious grounds.  Also now illegal to remove a CSA memorial. 

Both likely to be overturned by courts, which exist, again, to protect the civil liberties of individuals against the tyranny of the majority.

Even the lipstick won't help this pig, ender.

Sorry for double dipping but I forgot to add:

"The Battle of Liberty Place monument, which officials said was erected by the Crescent City White League to commemorate the deadly insurrection led by white supremacists against the city’s racially integrated police department and state militia, was removed in late April."

That was the first one removed.  A monument celebrating a riot led by white supremacists against the  integrated Reconstruction  government.

Full article for those interested:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/orleans-removes-confederate-statues-honor-cult-...

Big difference between remembering ugly history, best done in museums and history books, and celebrating it. 

While I understand how some might feel that way, all those people are a part of our history.<<<

One can only wonder what sort of "historical amnesia" the removal of Founding Father statues might entail?

If we don't know where we've been, how will we know where we "are" or might be headed?

Finally, until 1850 New Orleans had the highest number of free blacks and highly educated black professionals of any Southern city.

At that time as secessionist fervor grew harassment grew in NO with many leaving and increased application of the weird definitions of who was a black person. Some free citizens actually ended up enslaved, many lost businesses and property.

You cannot defend this bullshit.  Unless.... 

Museum!  History book!

...

Why don't they just blow them up........

Oh wait, that's what the Taliban and ISIS does........

Apologies.....carry on

Pretty sure it wasn't Isis or the Taliban that destroyed the statue of Sadaam Hussein. 

Losers in the war, especially those that fought to keep people enslaved do not deserves Statues in public squares. The winners get to decide these things, and the Confederacy LOST. Deal with it..in a Museum if need be. 

OMG omg yes, yes I shall deal with it, yes I shall... thank you thank you

Cool. And Apology accepted..you're welcome.

 next thing you know the Union will force the South to do away with the Confederate Flag too. 

An interesting topic of conversation. I can see both sides. 

On one hand you could argue we should completely throw out the Constitution as it was written by slave owners. In fact,The Constitution declared that for purposes of representation in Congress, enslaved blacks in a state would be counted as three-fifths of person to each of white inhabitants of that state. - The 3/5ths clause which lowered the number of congreemen for the South from 47 to 33. A political compromise for the both sides. On both sides blacks were prevented from voting as well.

This thinking would also make it okay to justify the behavior and scorn US servicemen were subjected to when they came home from Vietnam. As they were clearly fighting for a cause that had no merit. On the other hand I detest the free recruiting that goes on at sporting events in this country. At every game there is the whole honor the veterans and they usually throw out the ball or have a service band sing the national anthem. Large US flags are unraveled for the 7th inning stretch singing America the Beautiful. Jingoism at it's best. Ithink we should pull all troops out of our foreign wars. My oldest is 18 and we've been at war in Afghanistan for 16. Why do these kids continue to line up to be cannon fodder in unjust wars? Shouldn't they be staging a coup against all the lies and crimes committed by our government? Can you really respect service people these days when they support a maniacal government that keeps us in perpetual war.  Southern soldiers that fought in the civil war, it is estimated that only 6-30% of Rebs actually owned a slave. Maybe the jingoism back then helped sway that many more people to fight for slavery because they were inherent racists and today's soldier is nothing but the same but instead of blacks it's Muslims......

Oh yes, thank you.

But I'm not sorry, I'm sorry for you.

So sorry you choose to live in your liberal college hippie douchebaggery.

“People don’t realize, you know, the Civil War, if you think about it, why? People don’t ask that question, but why was there a Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?”

Fafa sounds a whole lot like Trump!

Nancy, I was agreeing with you.

Didn't read the thread 

what part are we at now?

Honoring a single treaty would be a good start.

I've never really been a fan of participation trophies

>So do you advocate removing all symbols of the U.S. Government, since it, you know, participated in genocide against the Native Americans?

No, silly. Just the Confederate rebels - aka traitors - who tried to take down the U.S. Government. They lost, so no they don't get to have statues in their honor displayed in public spaces. Of course the South could rise again..but in the meantime those statues of the traitors can be put away. 

>So do you advocate removing all symbols of the U.S. Government, since it, you know, participated in genocide against the Native Americans?

No, silly. Just the Confederate rebels - aka traitors - who tried to take down the U.S. Government. They lost, so no they don't get to have statues in their honor displayed in public spaces. Of course the South could rise again..but in the meantime those statues of the traitors can be put away.<<<

Are you suggesting that Native American's interests are subserviant to the U.S. Government?

Native American genocide is irrelevant to this discussion of Confederate "Hero" Statues coming down. 

>>>>>>>Are you suggesting that Native American's interests are subserviant to the U.S. Government?

I think she's suggesting they (like the South) lost the war.

Had the Indians won the war they probably wouldn't have statues of US Generals.

Native American genocide is irrelevant to this discussion of Confederate "Hero" Statues coming down. <<<

Why is it irrelevant?  I thought it was an excellent question.

I like your post, Fafa.

Interesting thread discussion going on, IMHO.

Comparing the Native American genocide to the Confederacy uprising? Mars, the Confederacy was fighting for a enslavement - and one could argue a genocide -against African Americans, while Native Americans were the victims of genocide. 

http://www.aigenom.org/

>The American Indian Genocide Museum has a vision to defeat prejudice and discrimination through education. 

 In the beginning of American History, a religious leader who claimed to speak for God gave all the lands west of the Azores and Cape Verde Islands to the King of Spain, if it wasn't already in the possession of some other Catholic King.

 This decree issued by Pope Alexander Vl, effective from Christmas Day 1492, is on display at  the General Archive of the Indies in Seville, Spain.

The bigotry and intolerance this decree created for Native Americans was realized when upon seeing the Tarawa Indians of the Bahamas, 
Columbus wrote, "They would make fine servants. With fifty men we could subjugate them and make them do whatever we want".

The problem with dehumanizing people in order to take their land is, that the next step is to take their lives also.
 Genocide in the Americas is not an easy subject to address- not for any American.

The purpose of this museum is to bring historical truth to light through the means of education using actual documentation of events that have transpired in the near extermination, and in some cases, the total extermination of native tribes and cultures. It is a memorial to the victims of ethnic cleansing. 
 Racism, discrimination and injustice will be addressed with the purpose of promoting public awareness that these elements of genocide which existed in the past, continue to exist today. A further purpose of the museum will be to address prejudice which is generated toward native peoples through biased reporting of history.  The goal of influencing authors of school textbooks with irrefutable documentation shall be of major importance. 
A library and microfilm archive will be available. The visual use of art, sculpture and film will create a memorable learning experience.

>>>>>Why is it irrelevant?

For the same reasons it wouldn't be irrelevant when discussing the Gulf War.

Is there a movement to  take down  statues of  Native Americans on public lands? 

Mars could find a way to make mayonnaise relevant here

Comparing the Native American genocide to the Confederacy uprising? Mars, the Confederacy was fighting for a enslavement - and one could argue a genocide -against African Americans, while Native Americans were the victims of genocide. <<<

Why would the confederacy seek a genocide, wouldn't it undermine their supply of cheap labor?

But I digress, I'm not comparing the two or argue which is "worse" ... which is kinda the point,  I'm simply asking why should we as a country be selective in so far as a basis for which who needs to be "erased" from the historical record as it has manifested itself via sculptures?    Is this not a very slippery slope? (I think that's kind of what Herbal Dave was alluding to)

Mars could find a way to make mayonnaise relevant here<<<

lol @ bro's constant color commentary re: thread personalities

What do YOU think about the topic?

>>>>I'm simply asking why should we as a country be selective in so far as a basis for which who needs to be "erased" from the historical record

Nothing is being erased.  They are improving public spaces and moving the statues to a museum. 

To Victor goes the spoils so if he wants the statues gone, I say they go. Rules a rule. 

>> Nothing is being erased.

Exactly. Statues typically are typically placed to honor historical people, not the treasonous. There' is no lack of published Civil War history.

The Rocky statue doesn't quite square up to this standard, though. :)

I only think about important things

>> They are improving public spaces and moving the statues to a museum. 

Really? Which museum?

>>>>Which museum?

The City hasn't said which one yet.  The Mayor said they will end up in a museum “or other facility where they can be put in context,”.

Maybe the Losers Hall Of Fame 

Maybe they can make a museum with a cell block.

Twice in my life, once back in college in the early '80's, then again on Phil tour down south in the early 2000's, I was a "Yankee In Disguise" during post show Libations amongst groups of southerners whose families dated back to Southern aristocracy/Confederate officers/etc;  After the Alcohol had Lubricated their tongues considerably, both groups had Shockingly similar Conversations, couching their thoughts in very Carefully used language/ wording, along the lines of:  Lamenting the loss of "Heritage" and "Legacy" nowadays, and the growing Societal lack of "Respect" and "Dignity" towards honoring their Ancestry.  And both groups affirmed that Old Dominion University is one of the last Bastions of Respect and Honor left in these Troubled times . . . 

Slideshow,

How do you decide which words to capitalize? 

Dunno, it's just a Thang.

OK, here's one way to tell if you're a Yankee or a Jonny Reb - Tent Caterpillers or Bagworms?

just wondering if this is going to continue and wind up being something of an issue at Gettysburg.  been there many times, one of the biggest loss of american life in U.S. history. many statues there, for both sides. will they be taking down only the "losing" sides statues? it could go as far as just erasing the battle lines for the southern army as well. then you only have one side of a story, history, to show or tell. who gets to erase history? this could lead to some other changes. just an opinion. 

Just the I'll informed opinion of a Yankee in battle flag of northern Virginia t-shirt.

I highly doubt the city of New Orleans will be removing any statues in Gettysburg.

A battlefield dedicated as a historical site is the same as a museum.  Appropriate use of historical iconography in context.

Confederate iconography in public areas or government buildings, flags etc.  completely inappropriate as it celebrates attempted secession and the slavery era. 

Also part of the very real effort starting at the end of Reconstruction thru the end of Jim Crow to relegate black Americans to servile status, deny American citizens basic civil rights and due process, and perpetuate the myth of white supremacy.

>in so far as a basis for which who needs to be "erased" from the historical record as it has manifested itself via sculptures? 

 no one is erasing anything - history remains, the statues glorifying the confederacy and what it stands for are being removed from public squares.

now if the Confederacy had won the Civil War, the statues would remain as would slavery.

since that's not the case, and those statues should have never been erected in the first place, and it's long overdue that they are coming down. RIP Confederate icons. 

of course, losers are still free to wear their Confederate flag shirts, fly their confederate flag on private property, on their pick up trucks, etc. 

The woman living in California has spoken. 

She speak, Pool boy listens.  

 no one is erasing anything - history remains, the statues glorifying the confederacy and what it stands for are being removed from public squares.<<<

Is there not a "history" related to the erection of said statues?

Since the end of the Civil War, do you believe slavery has received an inordinate amount of historical attention, not nearly enough, or somewhere in between?

Are John Stuart Mill's ideas re: freedom of speech non-applicable to statues or other art forms in so far as "bad ideas" being exposed for that they are if allowed to be presented in the "free marketplace of ideas"?

IMO, if you remove Lee, you need to also go after Jefferson. 

These statues and other relics of slavery times need to be preserved and displayed in an historical setting - a museum or battlefield - where education is (or should be) occurring, or on private property, not in a public space where the assumption would be that the populace supports these guys and their antiquated views.

Tent caterpillars

>After all, Auschwitz was not leveled after WWII

Oy Vey. There's not  Statues of Hitler and his SS throughout Germany, even though many people have relatives who fought for the Nazis. Again, no one is erasing any history - just removing glorified statues that should have never been erected after the Confederacy LOST.

Auschwitz was preserved as a memorial and living Museum to educate about the atrocities, not glorify the Nazis.

The Confederate icons can be remembered in Museums, on Private land, or on the many battlefield re-enactments. 

^ you still haven't addressed Jefferson in light of Lee.

What's the question, Mars?

If statues of Lee should be removed, how about Jefferson?

How about a former President? Probably not. Let's just hope no statues of Trump are ever erected. 

Simply because Jefferson was President, it would absolve him vs. Lee?  (again, just alluding to a very nebulous slippery slope)

If Jefferson were alive at the outset of the Civil War, do you really believe he'd have sided with the Union?

President of the United States. But if you think it needs to come down I can understand. 

So, a President is the one exception and Trump would be OK?

Regarding Jefferson:  POTUS was but one title,  He also "owned" over 600 slaves & how many Native Americans were forcibly displaced or killed under his administration.  This is to say nothing re: Women's rights.  

of course, losers are still free to<<<<

Does anyone really "win" at war?

My brother failed at war. 

>>Does anyone really "win" at war?

Lol

everything thing you ever wrote or will write should be suspect 

Lee was not from New Orleans.  Virginia was plenty of Lee ephemera.  

Jefferson, walking contradiction but he was a Prez.  Lee was not.

We are removing the Lee statue from Lee park in our town in VA.  Its meeting resistance, but it's moving.

My daughter attended Washington and Lee.  Dripping with it.  

Nothing Orwellian about air brushing history, no siree.

And what of the "Lee Barracks" @ West Point, constructed in 1962?

I think those are slated to become the Bruce Lee Barracks.

I throw the yard Dog poops in one area. I'm trying to save up enough to craft a Nixon statue.

But the nature of Dog poop allows it to decay and return to Earth.

I just wanted to make a Nixon statue so I could blow it up.

Les, that's a fantastic College. You should be proud of her.

Robert E. Lee is a different figure, iMO. He did a lot of engineering work in New Orleans pre-War. He spent the remainder of his lfe after the war telling former soldiers to be good citizens. He was not a slave-owner. He helped keep Washington and Lee College stay afloat after the war and left it in a position to be one of the premier engineering schools in the South.He was always polite, basically, the consumate gentleman. Had Lincoln been a better persuader, Lee would have crushed the Confederacy quickly. As it was, Lee felt beholden to the people who had supported him during his life, since the Revolutionary War left his father insolvent (eventually serving a year in debtors prison). I find Lee to be that one person who's ideals straddled the ante-bellum and post-bellum world.

However, his one moral flaw was tolerance of slavery and leading the Army that fought for it's retention.Even in this I feel he was conflicted. Had Lee not surrendered, the War would have become a partisan affair, dragging on for years and years and the entire South would have looked like central Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee and Florida - largely lawless and devoid of functioning Federal Courts until after 1900.Imagine a 100 year IRA style war in the entire South. For his complete surrender and his admonishment to former Confederates to go home and be good citizens, I feel Lee Statues don't carry the meaning of other Confederate statues. But, that's just my opinion.

For his complete surrender and his admonishment to former Confederates to go home and be good citizens, I feel Lee Statues don't carry the meaning of other Confederate statues. But, that's just my opinion.<<<

I would agree to a point about taking Lee under the context as a whole person (kind of in the same light as Jefferson), but some might feel the "mythology" surrounding Lee has been so warped over time that his image serves as an icon for those seeking to perpetuate hate and division in contemporary life.  However, I don't believe that ought to be a basis to "erase" Lee ... oops, sorry ... not "erase", but shelve him away into collective historical denial.

I have to admit to having a fondness for Lee.  He saved the south and the union by surrendering and encouraging people to go home instead of carrying on a guerilla war, which would have greatly complicated westward expansion.   Although he didn't have slaves himself (being broke) I believe that as the trustee of Arlington he used slave labor.  Having said that, I have a hard time not recognizing the reality that this was the norm at the time. The fact that he expressed opposition to slavery gets him a few points, but he wasn't a saint on this or anything. I'm good with them moving the statues --over time our notion of history changes.  The road named after the Buffalo Soldiers was renamed for MLK (cause god forbid we have more than one street honoring black people but I digress), War of 1812 place names get replaced by WW2 and Kennedy and so on. New statues go up to replace old statues.  Time marches on.  However, I hope they give old General Lee some dignity.  Instead of hollering at the workers and whatnot those who honor him should play a stately and slow version of Dixie and maybe Taps and then let him ride off to some warehouse. Bust out your re-enactor gear and do an honor guard or some shit if it means that much to you.  

I do hope that they keep around a few of these statues in a few public places out there somewhere, along with appropriate statues or monuments memorializing slaves, slave uprisings, abolitionists, and Union soldiers and political figures.  The civil war is something that should be stumbled upon by every american so that everyone learns from its cautionary tales.

Has Confederate Corners, CA been renamed yet?  How about Ft. Bragg?  Jeff Davis Peak?  I thought there was a law passed in CA to get rid of all confederate names, not sure if it passed.

Johnny Cash - God Bless Robert E. Lee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvIU6VQAWpo

This seems like a good place to write about this.  I live in CA and two of my co-workers have visited the south and BOTH of them made it a big part of their trip to visit plantations.  Weird.  

Oh.  I thought thread title was a clever way of saying Sessions was forced to resign.

Should Jefferson Davis Parish be renamed?

>>>" some might feel the "mythology" surrounding Lee has been so warped over time that his image serves as an icon for those seeking to perpetuate hate and division in contemporary life. "

I get that and it's totally legit.

>>>"However, I don't believe that ought to be a basis to "erase" Lee ... oops, sorry ... not "erase", but shelve him away into collective historical denial."

If you've ever been to Washington and Lee University, you know Lee will never be erased from history.

If you've ever been to Washington and Lee University, you know Lee will never be erased from history.<<<

No have never been.  I'm sure there are regional differences with respect to embracing various figures throughout American history & don't really believe he's being "erased" - even in the most liberal sections of our nation; however, it's "somewhere" along the spectrum & I believe it's a mistake.  In particular, I believe there are HUGE social undercurrents still at work re: the remnants of slavery and the Civil War, yet most people aren't aware nor give credence to this notion.  I think the light of day needs to shine on all aspects and in a way that connects the dots re: generational proximity and how we as a nation have made some strides in the right direction, but have also witnessed many setbacks.  Until we fully understand these larger undercurrents, these setbacks will continue to hamper our progress forward.  I'm know Lee has been in portrayed in many movies, but I'm curious if there's one specifically about the him that remains true to his character and as a real person?   Would Hollywood "touch" this subject in such a way or would it be too un-PC?

I'm not aware of a film about Lee, but I'm not a civil war or military buff so there could be one.  There is a great book called Killer Angels that's about the various participants on both sides of the battle at Gettysburg.  Source for that movie, but much better as a book--and I say that as someone who hates reading about battles.  It has interesting stuff about the thought processes of the generals and other officers on both sides.  You never think about it, but the career soldiers on both sides had been serving together in the US Army prior to secession, many fighting in the Mexican-American War, and killin' injuns, and building levees, and exploring, and mapping, and whatever armies do. Civil War meant long time friends fighting a war against each other.  That was the real "brother on brother" war.  Also interesting because even though the war was absolutely about slavery, the fact that at that time in history people did see themselves more as citizens of their states was important because that was why some of the soldiers felt they had to leave the US Army after secession.

Having said all that, and understanding why this will always be the topic of books, discussion, movies, etc, there's also no rule which says that any city ro state has to have a statue of any of those guys. They have had their time to be celebrated, too often for the wrong reasons.  If more southern people had tried to act like the heroic version of Robert E. Lee (whether he was real or not), then they might have been able to keep their statues.

Nancy says "Erected" several times - Huh huhhhhhh huh huuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh (Beavis & Butthead laughter)

Also interesting because even though the war was absolutely about slavery, the fact that at that time in history people did see themselves more as citizens of their states was important because that was why some of the soldiers felt they had to leave the US Army after secession.<<<

From my understanding of U.S. history, I agree with you ... especially with respect to Virginians for one reason or another felt great allegiance to their state first and foremost.  Perhaps it might have been a Revolutionary "throwback", but I believe the notion of "states rights" has been warped over time - partly because it had been used as an excuse re: slavery and secession, yet there was a very real foundation to the notion of the U.S. essentially being a Republic of many separate "mini nations" from the get go.  Jefferson clearly saw it this way and to one extent or another, so did his fellow Virginian neighbors and Presidential successors Madison and Monroe ... effectively launching this country for the first 25 years into the 19th Century.  Clearly, the Civil War had an effect on states' rights as well as other major world conflicts we found ourselves in years later.  I'm sure others more well versed in judicial review might be able to point to precedent that reigned in states' rights along the way, but it is hardly a "fiction" devised by partisans to get what they want.

In fact, I find it extremely interesting how many people seem to discard the notion of states rights simply by virtue of modern day observations of "how things work" currently.

What I have trouble with are politicians who are not consistent  and selectively apply states rights to favor their pet issues one way or the other ... especially those issues that are somewhat frivolous to begin with re: individual liberty (i.e. drug war).

>>>>>>>However, Robert E. Lee didn't own slaves 

Afraid I need to call foul here, Good Sir.

 Robert E. Lee—the executor of the estate—determined that the slave labor was necessary to improve Arlington's financial status. The Arlington slaves found Lee to be a more stringent taskmaster than his predacessor. Eleven slaves were “hired out” while others were sent to the Pamunkey River estates. In accordance with Custis's instructions, Lee officially freed the slaves on December 29, 1862.

https://www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm

Unbelievable 

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/05/14/protestors-nazi-charlottesvi...

Several dozen torch-wielding protestors gathered Saturday in Charlottesville, Va., chanting Nazi rhetoric as well as "Russia is our friend." Mayor Mike Signer has issued a statement likening the event to a KKK demonstration.

The group congregated in Lee Park by a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee, which is slated to be removed from the premises later this year following a February city council vote. Earlier in the day, protestors had also gathered at nearby Jackson Park, voicing their commitment to protecting what they called their "white heritage."

>>>>>What would Levon do?

Bang a black prostitute and write a song for Robbie Robertson to claim as his.

I don't know.  His book suggests he sure liked black prostitutes and writing songs for Robbie to steal.

The heroic version of Robert E. Lee that southern white people were taught to respect would have zero truck with these white power buffoons. 

Lee was executor not owner of Arlington. He didn't own much of anything. But he did allow it to happen on his watch (as did everyone else) so I'm not really into praising him for not owning slaves. It was what it was. 

<<<Unbelievable

I was there. Trying to post pics, but the new black screen doesn't like my Android.

One incongruous part of the scene was black Hells Angels in support of the statue.  Blew my mind.

Strange times, my friend.

Mayor Signor doesn't play that shit, though, broke it up pretty quickly.

He also declared C'ville a "Capital of the Resistance" on Jan 21st.

Charlottesville is to Virginia as Austin is to Texas for anyone unfamiliar with our little corner of the world.

For what its worth, I was with a few other longtime residents of this city and we didn't recognize a single torchbearer.

Happy to see these statues and the trash they attract relegated to history's dustbin.

Heading down to Lee Jackson Park with my candle to join the good citizens of my city to outshine those torches now.

>>>Nothing Orwellian about air brushing history, no siree.<<<

Not air brushing history, just no longer honoring treasonous racists with  public memorials​. You have issues with that, Thom?

I assume that Boston will be removing their statue of Sacco & Vanzetti as well?  Even Upton Sinclair knew that they were guilty:

Soon Sinclair would learn something that filled him with doubt. During his research for “Boston,” Sinclair met with Fred Moore, the men’s attorney, in a Denver motel room. Moore “sent me into a panic,” Sinclair wrote in the typed letter that Hegness found at the auction a decade ago.

“Alone in a hotel room with Fred, I begged him to tell me the full truth,” Sinclair wrote. ” … He then told me that the men were guilty, and he told me in every detail how he had framed a set of alibis for them.”

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec/24/local/me-sinclair24

And how about the statue of Lenin in Seattle?  Nothing wrong with honoring the man who was the inspiration for modern totalitarianism and the ideology that would result in the murder of over 100,000,000 innocent people in the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Got a problem with that?

Or do you like having something in common with these people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

Or this guy....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union

Thom, nobody has been advocating for any of the monuments you assume "us people" want.

Nice try at changing the subject.

Are you really that intellectually dishonest?  

Give Thom a break. You know the guy doesn't breath word of his whacked out political philosophies to anyone in person. Shit, probably his family doesn't even know the kind of stuff that's locked in his mind.

Shit, this is the guy who posted a bio of MLK Jr. which was created and published by Stormfront. Lol.

No, Thom, I have no issues with the removal of the monuments you mentioned, I'd encourage it.

But since you erroneously imply my support of, and my similarity to, some deplorable folks...

Let me remind you...

You are in agreement with white nationalist, Richard Spencer.  

And did you really try to equate the Taliban's destruction of ancient artifacts with the removal of some statues honoring treasonous racists?

Not air brushing history, just no longer honoring treasonous racists with  public memorials​.<<<

So in the grand scheme of things, is treason worse than embarking upon and/or maintaing a policy of "manifest destiny"; what ultimately resulted in either the genocide or complete displacement of re: Native Americans?

Again, why are "traitors" excluded from having statues, yet it's perfectly OK for re: the latter group of POTUS's?

Face, we are unable to deal with issues of race, so I don't see us confronting genocide just yet.

^a statue is a work of art.  Is removing them tantamount to censorship? 

No, they can be displayed in a museum, not in a public memorial honoring the individual.

>>Will the good people of Charlottesville soon be tearing up the acclaimed academic village that the racist slaver and manifest destiny proponent Jefferson...<<

No, but an honest account of history should be taught. 

It's a good start hiding away the statues that have been around 100 or so years.  But what about ridding ourselves of 4500 year-old monuments to slave labor?

These eyesores were built with 20 + years of slave labor and it is time they go away.  Same with the one in Las Vegas.

We should also get rid of all the Catholic churches in Central America, as it is widely known that the Spaniards enslaved, tortured, murdered, raped and brutalized the indigenous people to  construct their unholy temples to Mammon.

Maybe they could move them to some Vatican museum.

Village burning, imperialist LOSERS!  On the National Mall no less.

<<<Will the good people of Charlottesville soon be tearing up the acclaimed academic village that the racist slaver and manifest destiny proponent Jefferson created and replacing it with more suitably sterile Eastern Bloc-styled drab dwellings?

Probably not. It's a really beautiful place.

Thanks for your concern, no one here is in denial of TJ's past. 

I'm curious to see what Richmond does.

>>So a public memorial dishonoring the individual would be ok...

I wouldn't encourage that.

Ken, which burned village does that monument celebrate?

>>We should also get rid of all the Catholic churches in Central America, as it is widely known that the Spaniards enslaved, tortured, murdered, raped and brutalized the indigenous people to  construct their unholy temples to Mammon.

Maybe they could move them to some Vatican museum.<<

Sounds good

From Wiki:

"Leesburg was named to honor the influential Thomas Lee and not, as is popular belief, his son Francis Lightfoot Lee who lived in Loudoun and brought up the bill to establish Leesburg, nor as is sometimes thought, Robert E. Lee (his great-grandnephew)..."

^no longer publicly honoring treasonous racists is not air brushing history.

The history is well known. 

Folks are free to privately celebrate these treasonous racists.

Dave...change strain stat.

<<<<You got that right, Monticello is a cash cow, and the University is the engine that runs the Hook.

Spoken like someone who left town in 1985.

>It may be well known by historians and those interested in history, but not by the general public or the younger generation.  These monuments generate discussion and debate, like this thread.  Removing them relegates the history to musty storage shed<

They can be displayed in a setting where historical context can be provided, like in a museum.

Yes. Quite a bit, actually.

Davey Gravy?

>> They can be displayed in a setting where historical context can be provided, like in a museum.

People keep saying that, but that is not where they are being moved.

double post...

they're at it again.

Periscope of live March.

https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/863424848726556674

As long as removal of old statues, and installation of new statues, was determined by popular vote, I don't see a huge problem. Nobody is going to bother learning History anymore these days. Most people still think that we invaded Indochina to "fight communism" back when.

The problem I see is the use of tax $$ to pay for these projects. With all that Bronze or Brass already paid for by the taxpayer, the proper procedure would be to auction off the unwanted sculptures for more $$ than the scrap value, if possible, and put the surplus money towards block parties with Free Beer & Food.

If I were the Mayor, I'd take the surplus auction profits and commission local artists to create humongous Gumby & Pokey statues. Of course some idiots would bitch & moan that the Blockheads were not being represented...

>People keep saying that, but that is not where they are being moved<

That's unfortunate. They should be displayed in a setting where historical context can be provided.

>> People keep saying that, but that is not where they are being moved.

Might be a valid point if they were being melted down.

>>>>>People keep saying that, but that is not where they are being moved.

Correct.  When they first take them down they will go in a warehouse.  The plan is to get them to a museum.  Is that not what the Mayor has said?

The blockheads J&G w/ their water-pipes in the Park.  They symbolize oppression and evil deeds.

>> The plan is to get them to a museum.  Is that not what the Mayor has said?

No, that's not Landrieu's plan.

“I would say very respectfully to the entire Legislature that has a keen interest in this that the state has a much bigger budget and a much bigger swath of land, and if they want to curate these things, they certainly have the time, money and space to do it,” Landrieu said. “So instead of telling us what to do with our land, maybe they ought to ... put them wherever they want to.”

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_5e1296b2-2baa-11e7-b...

They were in a rush to taken them down even though there is no plans (or funding) to put them anywhere. 

>>>>>>> Give Thom a break. You know the guy doesn't breath word of his whacked out political philosophies to anyone in person.

Thom's job is in Academia, so I'm venturing to speculate that he's worked there a long time, as most Gov't & Academia jobs tend to be.  Thus, all his co-workers already know about his political views, & probably just nod their heads in agreement as they back away from any conversation he tries to start (this is how we treated the Tea Partiers @ my Gov't job. they used to have their own "Clatch" @ coffee break & lunch to complain about that Moooslim Terrorist Kenyan president three times a day every day for 8 loooonnnng year).  Also these Tea Partiers tend to be far less Competent than the rest of their co-workers so, as is typical @ Gov't/Academia jobs, where no one can be fired for any reason, everyone merely "works around" the Incompetent folks, gladly allowing them to "at least do no Harm", so the Tea Partiers are thus Free to spend their day on Social Media, dredging the Drudge Report, Brietbart, Info Wars, etc, for material to Spam their "friends" with Rants on Facebook (and VLZ) . . .

>>>>>> The plan is to get them to a museum.  Is that not what the Mayor has said?

No, that's not Landrieu's plan.<<<<<<

The current mayor, who enjoys some of that good will, said in a statement in late April that the statues would be moved to a museum “or other facility where they can be put in context,” 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/07/us/new-orleans-monuments.html

Yes, Timmy I've read his press release. 

That doesn't change the fact that there is no funding, location or actual real details. 

Well they can't force a museum to take them.  They'll have to find a place that wants them obviously.

>>>>I'm curious to see what Richmond does.

Me too.  All confederate monuments pale in comparison.  That is where the rubber will truly meet the road.

>> Well they can't force a museum to take them.  They'll have to find a place that wants them obviously.

Beauvoir wants them.

up

Apparently the state of Alabama has made it illegal to remove or destroy such statues, so the mayor of Birmingham took advantage of the wording of the bill and covered up the statues with tarps and plywood. The mayor of Baltimore removed theirs under cover of the night with no previous announcement.

Another solution would be to leave them where they are, but add, in large print on a plaque protected from vandalism, the slave-holding history of these men, and the historical context of when and why these statues were created.

POTUS  knows nothing about American history 

#SAD

alabama

get away

Great thread, the Hoover posts r particularly on point

Charlottesville just slipped out of the top ten of best towns in VA.. terrible just terrible..

Right, Fog. Slipping out of the "top ten" is the real tragedy.

>>>Charlottesville just slipped out of the top ten of best towns in VA.

Not in my book it hasn't

>>Not in my book it hasn't

neither one of us writes the best places article, your opinion does count though

Still not cool to have Charlottesville and its fine reputation dragged down by this.

>>Right, Fog. Slipping out of the "top ten" is the real tragedy.

Quality miscomprehension slander trolling, very well done.

Trump Tweeted, "The country is being ripped apart by monument removals."

Dumbfuck doesn't realize that the country was already ripped apart, and this is a step in healing.

That would have been like Lincoln saying, "country being ripped apart by abolitionists."

He just doesn't get it.

Does California have any? 

>>>Still not cool to have Charlottesville and its fine reputation dragged down by this.

agreed, but that seems to b an unfortunate inevitability, at least in the short term.

California had 5 but as of yesterday there are 4 left (according to the Southern Poverty Law Center) including the municipalities of Fort Bragg and Confederate Corners.

Interesting letter from Stonedwall Jackson's great great grand kin and they say the statues need to GO: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/stonewa...

How ironic....Robert E. Lee was against erecting Confederate memorials.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/robert-e-lee-statues-letters-trnd/index...

Richmond VA Mayor just announced yesterday he wants his "Monument Avenue Commission" to look into removal or relocation of the monuments here. Original intent of the commission was to just "add context" to the monuments. That caused a pretty good stir. This shift will cause a complete shitstorm. Y'know with Richmond being the capitol of the confederacy and all that. There are some folks here that will go completely nuts over this. And, of course, people are already saying that if you take down the confederate monuments you must also take down the Arthur Ashe monument. Because it's gotta "be fair"...

How about the one Trump made up himself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/us/politics/in-renovation-of-golf-clu...

>>>And, of course, people are already saying that if you take down the confederate monuments you must also take down the Arthur Ashe monument. Because it's gotta "be fair"...

sonofabitch, my wife's a Richmond native and said people were gonna have that ridiculous opinion and I didn't want to believe her.

goddamnit, Virginia. 

I guess these purple state puberty growing pains r to b expected like what just happened in c'ville but fuck.

stop embarrassing yourself, you're better than this

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

― George Orwell, 1984

We love it up near Ft Bragg. So beautiful. 

Too far?

>>>>What are your thoughts on Billy Penn in Philly?

He needs to put that thing back in his pants

How about for every monument that is taken down one of a Native American is put in its place.  Not only would some folks find it fair, but it would be good for the arts.

lol voodoo

How about for every monument that is taken down one of a Native American is put in its place.  Not only would some folks find it fair, but it would be good for the arts.<<<

You touch on an interesting aspect ... forget about Jefferson and Washington being slave holders, even the Lincoln Memorial could be viewed in a negative light via the lens of those that were here first.  Was actually thinking about the wording on a monument to the Ute's near where I live,   I know the people who erected the momument had the best of intentions and mostly got it right, but couldn't help but ponder the last sentence "Forever shall you be welcome here."  ... as if the monument / gov possesses some sort of "ultimate authority" to grant the right to be forever welcome that did not exist prior?   There are other interpretations that aren't so cynical, but the point being that monuments are tricky in terms of how people interpret things ... especially over time.

>>>>>you must also take down the Arthur Ashe monument

Arthur Ashe was a slaveowner?

Who knew?

Lee was a general who lost a war against the United States (or at least some of them) of America.  

Why R we celebrating his culture?  No one is offering a historical denial of who he was or what he faught for. 

As for shelving a statue celebrating him, that might work.    

This is interesting. 

America’s Monument to Its Most Infamous Traitor, Benedict Arnold

http://www.neatorama.com/2014/01/01/Americas-Monument-to-Its-Most-Infamo...

we should probably make some statues about killing mexicans and taking texas and california....

ps. fuck junipero serra.