A Conspiracy (of Human Stupidity)
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So, you know, conspiracies. I used to be a big fan of delving into conspiratorial thought, Masons, Illuminati, Elders of Zion, Order of the Blue Garter, Bildeberg Group, etc. I guess I mostly got into it through Robert Anton Wilson and also Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum (basically The Illuminati Trilogy for grownups). I still believe there are groups of people who have great amounts of power and wish to retain that power and are willing to do a great many things in secrecy to achieve that goal. Which, I guess, is the definition of a conspiracy. And I've come to two conclusions:
1) There is no real tangible difference between conspiracy and planning conducted by closed groups to achieve their aim. Take a board of directors of a company, for example. Clearly, they're going to do everything they can to insure the growth of their corporation and the influx of resources, up to the limit of where they think they won't get caught. The decisions on how to do that would logically be made in secrecy, since to not do so would certainly risk the company's growth. Is that not ultimately a conspiracy then, in a sense? Doesn't it make sense that any group of power brokers would do the same thing to retain their power?
However,
2) There's just no way there can be any real hardcore conspiracy who's aim is global domination and has managed to operate unimpeded in a way that would constantly advance their goals. The reason: because humans are fucking blabbermouths. The bigger your secret gets, the higher probability there is of it leaking out somehow. My case in point: right now SOME people are prone to referring to the Mueller investigation as a scam. If we assume this premise to be true, then you have to ask yourself some questions: Who is orchestrating the scam? How are they perpetuating the scam without other people catching wind of what they are doing and exposing it? How many people would have to be 'in on it' to make it work? Is it possible for that many people to cooperate on something and not have their plans be revealed? When you start picking the threads apart of any conspiratorial line of thought, you just find that there are no satisfying answers to the questions asked. To bring up a more controversial example: 9/11. My mind can't wrap its head around any of the explanations as to why WTC 7 fell, why there were air drills the same day confusing the operation, why weren't certain protocols followed, the magic passport, etc...On the other hand, though, how many people would have to be in on something like that to make it work? It would have to be so many as to make it completely unfeasible in my mind that any group of humans could really pull off that kind of deceit without people speaking, getting sloppy or random evidence popping up.
No, the only conspiracy I really believe in is the conspiracy of human stupidity. Humans are often shortsighted, greedy, power hungry and ruthless, leading to groups of people forming bonds to take or retain power in some sphere, but ultimately, those groups are competing with hundreds of other groups who want the opposite. No group like this can last for too long, because humans are fickle and whimsical and change their desires, needs, hopes, etc.
Anyways, that's my thoughts on the matter. How about you all? How do you feel about conspiratorial thought in general? Has anybody else notices that where once, like 20 years ago, conspiratorial thought was often brought up in liberal circles, and nowadays its become almost exclusively associated with far-right thought? What do you think about that?
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Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Sycamore Slough
Individuals with influence,
Individuals with influence, money and power are capable of zipping their lip and got there by doing so.
"Three can keep a secret when two are Dead."
Anyway, look at something like "The Manhattan Project". That one had many employees, but they kept it pretty quiet.
no one really knew that USA was planning to drop the A-bomb on Japan.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Andean Flight
But Stu, doesn't your quote
But Stu, doesn't your quote directly contradict your first statement?
And the Manhattan Project was a government funded project created in war time to face a certain threat. I would imagine that with military orders sanctioned by the government, that keeping a secret would be easier. And really, how secret was it? Did nobody who worked there talk to their wives or buddies about it? I'm not all that familiar with the project, but are you sure that NOTHING was known about it while it was happening? How long did that last? The project was only like a year long, no?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Andean Flight
"Individuals with influence,
"Individuals with influence, money and power are capable of zipping their lip and got there by doing so."
And I agree with this, as I stated in my first paragraph, but for how long? Eventually the power interests within the group will tear the group apart as individuals find their possibilities open in other directions. Power groups are dynamic in that new people enter and leave and bring their own agendas with them. It seems like that to me, anyway...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: .............
^ except for Russia having a
Minus the Russian spies getting ALL the details on how to build a bomb....yes, we did a good job of keeping that big of a secret (when , what exactly, and where) quiet
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Sycamore Slough
Any sane individual will look
Any sane individual will look at the historical facts surrounding "Manhattan Project" and surmise that it was not widely known about what they were up to.
It actually took a few years to achieve the goal(s) and was sort of a Big Surprise when the A-Bombs were dropped on Japan.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
but but but the dossier
but but but the dossier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Alan R
Well written thesis. I
Well written thesis. I understand Stu's point and that's what we were taught growing up, but a little Googling reveals:
Secrets of the Manhattan Project Leaked 1500 Times During World War II
The World War II program to develop an atomic bomb was the largest secret project ever undertaken by the U.S. government. But newly-declassified documents reveal how it hard it was to keep things secret as the weapon neared completion. Information leaks were everywhere, even in church sermons.
The declassified official history of the Manhattan Project is fascinating in that it reveals the tremendous amount of resources invested in tracking down the source of each and every reported leak—which encompassed more than 1,500 investigations.
And, the documents include several examples of the type of "loose talk" and careless behavior that occurred more frequently as the program to build the atomic bomb expanded. All of the cases had to be investigated, sometimes revealing false alarms, other times revealing potentially serious breeches in security.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/secrets-of-the-manhattan-project-were-leaked-a-s...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: .............
We had our own spies in
We had our own spies in Russia who also confirmed that their first bomb was basically an identical twin to ours....doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out....;)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Andean Flight
So, it seems we don't have
So, it seems we don't have evidence of any conspiracy or secret project that hasn't somehow leaked out, then. Which adds credibility of my original idea. There's just no way humans can keep their mouths shut that long and about things that are so fun to talk about...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Def. High
We still don't "know" who was
We still don't "know" who was,behind the JFK killing or 911.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
^ or Vegas shoot-down. Nobody
^ or Vegas shoot-down. Nobody hates country music that much.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
Is it possible for a
Is it possible for a conspiracy to be a small "orphaned" black ops ring that goes dark; or is killed off by another black ops group that doesn't have any knowledge of first group's activities?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Smaller is better if you want
Smaller is better if you want it kept under wraps: Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
>>>>I still believe there are
>>>>I still believe there are groups of people who have great amounts of power and wish to retain that power and are willing to do a great many things in secrecy to achieve that goal. Which, I guess, is the definition of a conspiracy.
Yup. While people do blab, many of the true conspiracies of the modern era were exposed only after some fuck up, such as the Watergate burglars getting nabbed or Eugene Hasenfus getting shot down over Nicaragua. Who knows how much shady shit has gone down and continues to go down.
And we still don't exactly know what happened to JFK. Anyone really believe the official explanation? Bueller? Bueller?
And what about Roswell? What ever might have happened, fact remains that the Air Force swooped in and swept everything up under immense secrecy. Whether it was a secret weather balloon experiment or what, people involved kept their mouths shut.
As for 9/11, however, the conspiracy theories are so fantastic and the execution of which would had to have been so complex, massive, and over the top, that I have to go with the much simpler official explanation that a bunch of determined jihadists exploited fundamental flaws in airline security to cause a lot of death and destruction.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: 19.5 Degrees
Until proven otherwise, I go
Re: 911: until proven otherwise, I go with the "much simpler official explanation"; however, I wouldn't be my life on it. The resemblance to a controlled implosion is uncanny and allowing the plane of Saudis to proceed are two aspects that inject uncertainty into the equation for me. Then again, I wouldn't bet there's anything to either of these aspect. I guess I approach mostly everything as a fluid / continuous evaluation of the likelihood of occurrence & never conclusively rule anything in or out.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Ken D.
And as a side note, I had an
And as a side note, I had an uncle who was in the OSS in WWII. After the war, he went to work for a NGO that went around building wells and helping with other infrastructure projects in the third world. My parents noticed that wherever he went, there would be some sort of coup or revolution shortly after he left. Although it was pretty well understood he was working for the CIA, he never spoke a word of it to anyone.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
My brother-in-law's Dad was
My brother-in-law's Dad was the same way, Ken. I've heard stories of him working (USAid) and there being coups in his wake. Died at a relatively young age mysteriously from an infection contracted in Haiti.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Andean Flight
Dude, Ken, Ned: what if you
Dude, Ken, Ned: what if you guys have the same grandfather and he kept it totally under wraps that he had two families??? Just kidding, but it is a pretty funny coincidence.
As for 9/11, I llike FOM's take on it. I also see things as a continuity of probabilities and never really rule anything out. But when faced with two possibilities, neither of which is likely, but one requires such a complex network of support to make it true, my logic/intuition has to rule out that possibility just on the low likelihood of it being kept together.
There may well be tons of shady shit that has gone down, but that's not the same as a conspiracy, IMO. For example, someone working for the CIA to orchestrate coups on other parts of the world isn't, IMO, part of a conspiracy. There is a clear chain of commands that is supported by the powers that be, and more likely than not, someone in the government does have access to that information, probably. The other thing that's strange about it is that the CIA's role in provoking coups around the world is well known, and many countries that had coups in that time are very well informed about the role the CIA played. Why would these other coups be different that no information was ever heard about them (in terms of CIA involvement)? Know what I mean?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: .............
My cousin worked for same
My cousin worked for same company^...lol...after he retired from Navy Seals (as an instructor) he told his Dad about this new company he wrkd at...8,000 employees in San Fran office alone...told his Dad at was on stock market and to buy a few shares maybe, and even gave him address for company...i guess he never thought his elderly Dad would fly out, because when he did, and went to business address....it was an empty lot.....;)
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Dr. Benway
Alex Jones Rants as an Indie
Alex Jones Rants as an Indie Folk Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWd6XgBVIcg
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: .............
To answer Javs post from 8:33
To answer Javs post from 8:33 yesterday...
It was a three year project ...and at the time that Roosevelt died and Truman was sworn in, Truman had NO idea about the project...so, although, there were leaks, and there were spies etc....overall, they did a great job of keeping it secret, especially considering the thousands that were wrkng on it at 3 differant sites in the country, and that it was over a three year period etc.