Faith

 >>>>>Not a believer ? Riiiiiiiiiigh, y'all just don't want to admit it.

Did you really post that?

Lol.

Guess you got to be right, though, 'cause you're "The Maker".

Do we now prostrate ourselves, or is bowing sufficient?

Dude, get over your self.

Ras, you're a really shitty salesman for this thing you're trying to shove down other people's throats. Like really shitty.

Bay City Rollers may really be your kind of music<<<

Nah, these guys ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjtD8A-MWBc

But in all seriousness, I can't help but wonder if Christianity has an embedded "locust-like" projective antagonism toward Judaism that has been baked into a collective psyche; toggling between dormancy and active measures?

* or antagonism toward any other religion for that matter?

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cs3Pvmmv0E

Faith No More: Epic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG_k5CSYKhg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-EdCNjumvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo&ab_channel=TimMinchin

No, not just Xtian, I am pretty much against all the religions.

Every single one is racist and discriminates against women and gay folk.  Women, children, animals, and the earth are men's property.  No need to worry about environment cause Gawd is in charge and Jesus is comingback next week!

Also very handy for creating the "Other".

Please read Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason.

Of course, if we could wipe it off the face of the earth in ten years there would be new ones as there is too much damn money on the table.

Playing devil's advocate (pun intended lol), What about the opposite?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTgKRCXybSM

I really love this song as I find it very truthful to me. No disrespect meant to anyone else on here's beliefs at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_(A_Perfect_Circle_song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJfb493As_g

I have faith in myself.  for those that don't, well they seem to seek it elsewhere.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3o-dOXNPYU

It's funny how people today in this insane crazy do what I want world think they know anything about the truth. People need to get back to where we came from and contemplate  on your ancient ancesters and think about what they would think about the human behaviour today. They'd be appalled at what humanity has turned into as is the Creator! But he knew what we tools would end up doing to this world. The script was already written. I feel sorry for the future generations. 

Good luck to them!

I'm sure past generations have said the same things.

>>>> I am pretty much against all the religions. , , , Every single one is racist and discriminates against women and gay folk.  

There are very progressive branches of the Episcopal Church that embrace women clergy and gay people.   With all the pomp and circumstance of a high Catholic mass but half the dogma, progressive Episcopalians are one of my favorite monotheistic religions.

Wiccans and many other neo-pagans don't have an issue with women or gay people either and instead are often anti-patriarchal.  

And yeah, Jimmy Carter is a true Christian who walks the walk.

i dont really understand the need some people have to take this ancient book filled with homophobia, misogyny, and justifications for unspeakable cruelty and violence, totally ignore all those things, focus only on the passages that sound very loving and accepting, and then claim that the bible is the word of god or divinely inspired in some way. if its not ok to be homophobic, the bible is the word of god or divinely inspired, why does it tell us to put gays to death? 

if a book was really inspired by some benevolent, all powerful creator, you'd expect them to not instruct us to stone the gays to death

There are very progressive branches of the Episcopal Church that embrace women clergy and gay people.  

and their entire religion is based on a book that tells us to stone the gays to death. ignoring or making excuses for believing a book that tells us to stone the gays to death is the word of god sounds soooooooo progressive

Top 5 worst thread of 2022

The closest I've come to faith is reading the book the Tao of Physics. When you win the Nobel Prize you have to pick a coat of arms and one of the physicist chose the Ying Yang symbol because he believed that was one of the best representations of how the universe works. Everything in ballance. The white circle in the black part and black circle in the white part means that there is some good in the worst things and some bad in the best things, and the border between the two is depicted as a wave. 

No better way to make you not believe in Christianity than sending you to an all boys Catholic high school, but I did meet my first Dead Heads there so nothing is absolute. That said I was closely connected to the running of the largest homeless shelter in SF for years, and met some astonishingly good Catholics through that association. For all the secularist like to bag on Christians they are the ones on the front lines helping the poor in this country. I don't see a lot of atheist run homeless shelters. Just goes to show that even with all the child fucking, misogyny, and homophobia there is some good that comes out of it. 

Also really loved this Ted Talk on what atheist should adopt from religion. One of them was intentional group travel around a common theme or as I liked to call it touring. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ

> Top 5 worst thread of 2022

If not with a bullet, then with nails in a cross at least.

It's funny how people today in this insane crazy do what I want world think they know anything about the truth. People need to get back to where we came from and contemplate  on your ancient ancesters and think about what they would think about the human behaviour today.<<<<

But wouldn't it follow that the "ancient ancestors" need to get back to where they came from and contemplate on their ancient ancestors and think about what they would think about the human behaviour today?  ... and so on

Admin if you're reading this please delete this thread. It's deeply offensive to some of us. 

I have faith that if i do get to meet the Supreme Leader, "it" will look like either Mother Theresa or Albert Hoffman. How could it be anyone else?

I was raised in  a very conservative Jewish household. My mother is a Holocaust survivor, and her parents were orthodox. I went to Hebrew Day School for much of elementary school, where we learned about the beliefs of all the "major" religions. In spite of being raised with religion, not once in my life have I ever believed in God. Never.

I have no problem with religion. On the day-in-day out, it brings more joy and solace than it does harm. I do have a problem with people who weaponize religion. I have a problem with people who proselytize. I have a problem with people who think their beliefs are facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQjRxdMEGds

From Eternity thread: Ras, what you are saying is indeed personal, and reflects either your lack of knowledge of religions other than your own or a willingness to harass people from other religions or who don't share yours.

There is no eternity, heaven or hell taught in Judaism. Harassing Jews or anyone else for their religion is wrong and dangerous stuff.

I don't care if anyone is religious until they apply their religion to anyone else. Idolize who you idolize, believe what you believe, but the minute you use your religion against anyone else, in words or deeds, or think anyone else needs to feel the same way about religions as you do, or is less of a person because they don't share your religion, I can't respect it.

Faith makes for some obnoxious MFers. 

Why is that?

You're an idiot, Ras. I couldn't care less what Elvis or anyone ever said or did relating to their religious beliefs, including (gasp!) you. You clearly have the freedom to have faith in and believe whatever you want to believe but that doesn't make it true or absolute with anyone else's beliefs or reality that they also have the freedom to enjoy. You have no idea what or why other people believe what they do or don't so you should really keep all it to yourself....or join a missionary group someplace else where you can get reality-checked by the actual real door slamming in your face.

A lawyer dies, gets to the gates of Heaven and St Peter says, " Welcome to heaven, go right in  "

A politician dies, gets to the gates of heaven and St. Peter says, "Welcome to heaven, go right in."

A stage hand dies, gets to the gates of heaven and St Peter says, "The loading dock is around back."

Sorry if the topic is more than some can handle, I'll try n lighten it up a bit -<<

Good example of what I'm talking about.  

I agree you're sorry.

>>>There are very progressive branches of the Episcopal Church that embrace women clergy and gay people. 
 

I am aware Ken and know some of those folk.  I am sure you are aware of the schism in the worldwide Episcopal/Anglican Communion over the gay archbishop.  The African Anglicans are particularly abhorant.  Some of my former students were members of an Episcopal church in VA which devolved into a nasty battle and lawsuits over property in the conflict over gay ministers, bishops, and gay marriage.

A family member was same sex married in an Episcopal church but they could not use the sanctuary.  

I really support religious freedom including non-belief.  Imagine a declared atheist being taken seriously as a Presidential candidate.

A BIG part of the Trump cult is based in Xtian nationalism.  R v. W is only the beginning.  

Now there’s spiritual warfare and flesh and blood breaking down
Ya either got faith or ya got unbelief and there ain’t no neutral ground
The enemy is subtle, how be it we are so deceived
When the truth’s in our hearts and we still don’t believe?

Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Shine your light, shine your light on me
Ya know I just couldn’t make it by myself
I’m a little too blind to see
 

Whatever. Ras has seen The Light and, as a result, he's more advanced than the rest of us.

What sock puppets or aliases has Ras used? I remember him being a very small player on the original zone. 

How's this take, Ras: you don't have faith, you're an idolator. God gave the 10 Commandments, His law, to Moses. You and your ilk have rewritten them to fit your polytheistic whims. This is commandment 1:

I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
 

That's not your first commandment, is it? You don't follow the Lord's word. You aren't His chosen, nor will you ever be. He didn't bring you out of bondage. You put others in bondage..

Here's the real Second Commandment:

You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
 

My, how you' ve bastardized that one, huh? Like all Christians, you've rewritten the word of the Lord to fit your human desires.

Believe what you want, but don't talk about faith. You believe that Jesus is the son of god, just some silly Greco-Roman fairy tale. The Torah, the infallible word of God, tells that we are all equal children of God. You have faith in a man made story, and you don't follow the word of God.

They ain't making Jews like Jesus anymore

Can you blame them, Bss? Last time, the guy lived for 34 years and was a mensch. His rabid fan-base have spent the next 2,000 years being not so nice, all in his name, with their holy rolling and hell raising. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh7OvPAqeys

Bri.....and Judit.....

sigh!

Buddhism is neither a faith nor a religion.

Brian, are you and I some sort of team?

I think we're swell, what's with the sigh, doolittle?

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine
Meltin' in a pot of thieves
Wild card up my sleeve
Thick heart of stone
My sins my own
They belong to me, me

People say "beware!"
But I don't care
The words are just
Rules and regulations to me, me

I-I walk in a room, you know I look so proud
I'm movin' in this here atmosphere, well, anything's allowed
And I go to this here party and I just get bored
Until I look out the window, see a sweet young thing
Humpin' on the parking meter, leanin' on the parking meter
Oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
And I got this crazy feeling and then
I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine
Ooh i'll put my spell on her

Here she comes
Walkin' down the street
Here she comes
Comin' through my door
Here she comes
Crawlin' up my stair
Here she comes
Waltzin' through the hall
In a pretty red dress
And oh, she looks so good, oh, she looks so fine
And I got this crazy feeling that I'm gonna ah-ah make her mine

And then I hear this knockin' on my door
Hear this knockin' on my door
And I look up into the big tower clock
And say, "oh my God here's midnight!"
And my baby is walkin' through the door
Leanin' on my couch she whispers to me and I take the big plunge
And oh, she was so good and oh, she was so fine
And I'm gonna tell the world that I just ah-ah made her mine

And I said darling, tell me your name, she told me her name
She whispered to me, she told me her name
And her name is, and her name is, and her name is,
And her name is G-L-O-R-I-A
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

I was at the stadium
There were twenty thousand girls
Called their names out to me
Marie and Ruth but to tell you the truth
I didn't hear them I didn't see
I let my eyes rise to the big tower clock
And I heard those bells chimin' in my heart
Going ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong.
Ding dong ding dong ding dong ding dong
Counting the time, then you came to my room
And you whispered to me and we took the big plunge
And oh. You were so good, oh, you were so fine
And I gotta tell the world that I make her mine make her mine
Make her mine make her mine make her mine make her mine

G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

And the tower bells chime, "ding dong" they chime
They're singing, "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine."

Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A,
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A, G-L-O-R-I-A
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria,
G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A
Gloria G-L-O-R-I-A Gloria

Patti Smith - Gloria (1979) Germany

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgNeBNMJFZs

I thought I was on a team with Mike, at least that's what he keeps telling me.

https://youtu.be/ocXO0fR1q6s

The world is against do-little, BK. We're all on the same team but him.

He's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plZRe1kPWZw

Should we break it to him that you and I have never conversed off-board?

Blessed are the cheese makers.

Ras, if you're gonna' write long posts you might want to have a little more faith in paragraphs.

Paragraphs are your friend Ras.

> Should we break it to him that you and I have never conversed off-board?

But he's said that we have, and he can't be wrong; do-little has god on his side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y2FuDY6Q4M

Oh my name it ain't nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I was taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side

Oh, the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh, the country was young
With God on its side

The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War, too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I was made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side

The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side

The Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now, too
Have God on their side

I've learned to hate the Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side

But now we got weapons
Of chemical dust
If fire them, we're forced to
Then fire, them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side

Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war

Death is death, dude. Life is what we live. I know  that life is bigger than death.

I practice Dzogchen meditation in the Tibetan Bon tradition.

Wiki:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

Bon:  https://ligmincha.org/bon-buddhism/

You have faith in a man made story, and you don't follow the word of God.<<<

^ this, but it's so much more ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0zr2sXszYM

What might be the predictable large-scale sociological "Newtonian" reaction of millions of people compelled to buy into a "man made story" for 2000 years that can't be "verified" via some form of reliable repetition that demonstrates the validity of claims with so-called "scripture"?  Moreover, what happens when a construct such as science emerges over the past few centuries that provides a greater degree of cohesion between its internal construct language and that which we observe in the external environment?  Even with reformations up the wazoo, the correlation between the "story" and the "world" requires MAJOR leaps of faith IMO.  

Just as more and more evidence of Trump's corruption comes to light, the more and more his supporters will dig-in to their "faith" .. and stake out even more outrageous positions in order to defend the constructs they've bought into from the get go and have doubled down countless times since.   I believe a similar sort of sociological effect is happening with Christianity as the 2000 year old "man made story" becomes more difficult to buy into wholeheartedly as an end all be all.  The cognitive disonance simply becomes greater and greater as the environment - driven by science - continues to evolve and be an ever-present reminder (at least at the subconscious level) of a "different story" that does a better job at explaining more things in the world and universe.

 I'm not trying to argue against faith, since I believe it's inescapable that even the most ardent believer in science will have to make a leap a faith at some point in describing all that exists.  While I have faith there are forces at work greater than "me", I don't claim to have a faith that is an end all be all with respect to "who, how, what, and why" said forces are at play.   (assuming "who, how, what, and why" are even appropriate terms)

> I believe a similar sort of sociological effect is happening with Christianity

They call it "Christian Nationalism".

The religious right has long supported conservative causes, but this current wave seeks more: a nation that actively prioritizes their particular set of Christian beliefs and far-right views and that more openly embraces Christianity as a bedrock identity.

Many dismiss the historic American principle of the separation of church and state. They say they do not advocate a theocracy, but argue for a foundational role for their faith in government. Their rise coincides with significant backing among like-minded grass-roots supporters, especially as some voters and politicians blend their Christian faith with election fraud conspiracy theories, QAnon ideology, gun rights and lingering anger over Covid-related restrictions.

Their presence reveals a fringe pushing into the mainstream.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/us/christian-nationalism-politicians....

Hence, Christo-Fascism.

That's the goal. Christian Nationalism is how they get there.

I feel Religion and Faith give people cover to believe bigger Lies and to not question what you are told...

i had more ' faith ' as a kid that the characters from The Grimm Fairy Tales were based in reality more so than the Bible. I knew the Bible and God and all that was bullshit after spending 9 yrs in Catholic School and when i began to ask questions, legit, viable questions that i was deemed ' a trouble maker '.

I also really REALLY knew it after i dropped a hit and saw a Spring '81 Nassau show, (5/6/81) when i was a Freshman in HS - an all boys Jesuit HS...i never looked at things the same

>>> Nice participation zoners. Beats the shit outta these boring fucking posts where we all agree 100% on everything. 

Give yourselves a nice pat on the back. <<<
 

So this thread was Ras's calculated way of creating a contentious thread for his enjoyment and amusement. Jeeez.

Losah. Can we hope for a participation award too? Does it come with a fkn bible? LOL

When I was a kid my folks made us go to sunday school most of the time. They did not think they needed to go to church every week though. When I was 12, the church wanted to make me an adult christian and put me in classes to prepare for the big conversion to adult idiot.  What I got from those classes and all the questions that were answered with "Ya just gotta have faith" is that it is all bullshit. Have not set foot inside a church other than for weddings and funerals since. 56 yrs. Thanks Millbrook presbyterian for showing me the light.

> Jeeez.

Abbreviated blasphemy! Prepare the stones!

^^Ditto...but I was very fortunately given the choice - after years of Sunday school and church attendance - and gladly refused said classes & subsequent transition which would have led to full adult membership/fellowship after being "confirmed" [UCC/mainstream protestant vein with some exposure to lutheranism (sp? sic?) as well]. I had already seen more than enough to realize it was all complete BS. I have not looked back or for one millisecond questioned that wise decision.

>> means nothing 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTQ7__NNDI

 “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

Faith requires the absence of reason.

Say's the monkey brain.

People think they're soooo smart that they figured out life. LOL

Are out of body experiences fake. 

I'm going to end my participation in this thread here. 

I made my point in my above post. No reason to go on and on. People believe what they want to believe. 

Time will or not tell.

>  People believe what they want to believe.

Exactly, and regardless of reason. Faith leaves logic behind. It's the polar opposite of critical thinking.

Ras, I have a serious question for you. If your creator gave you the ability to reason, isn't it something like blasphemy to not use it?

Using fiction to support fiction?

.

> Using fiction to support fiction?

Finally. Something that makes sense.

> Using fiction to support fiction?

Finally. Something that makes sense. <

It's funny how that works...

Say's the monkey brain.

People think they're soooo smart that they figured out life. LOL

Are out of body experiences fake. 

I'm going to end my participation in this thread here. 

I made my point in my above post. No reason to go on and on. People believe what they want to believe. 

Time will or not tell.

ive had a very vivid out of body experience while using drugs, and have had a few mystical/borderline mystical experiences without drugs, and tbh, neither of those experiences ever struck me as things that required any kind of external or supernatural influence to occur, and seemed totally in line with all kinds of non supernatural, easily explainable mental experiences spurred on by changes in brain chemistry caused by either drugs or some other external stimuli(like a grateful dead show).

as far as the type of out of body experiences that people claim to have regularly on demand, be able to teach others, or things like remote viewing, yes, they are very very obviously fake. astrology level fake. donald trump won the election level fake.

if you believe in stuff like remote viewing or astrology, yet cant seem to understand how people believe that joe biden stole the 2020 election or that a secret global cabal of pedophiles rules the world...man...idk what to tell you.

Ye shall know them by their fruits.

Same criminal regime who murdered Kashoggi and bought my (EX) Premier League team.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/saudi-woman-given-34-year-...

> I believe a similar sort of sociological effect is happening with Christianity

They call it "Christian Nationalism".<<<

How have we not seen with brutal clarity that "Christian Nationalism" is only a drop in the bucket to the lengths to which people will go?

Animal House 1978 one tiny little Atom under your fingernail

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUOGxePBs50

Germany<<<

.

jesus is a comic book character.

What's the name for a savior who's too dumb to know when he's failed?

All I got in my pockets is this hammer and a couple extra nails.

~Fantastic Cat~

I think it's a great idea to revisit life's big questions periodically.  This thread inspired me do that, so, thanks!

Discussions of faith often focus on Christianity because of believers' evangelism.  I have to say that the "Good News" gets old real fast if it is boiled down to "our book or else".

However, since Catholicism and Christianity have been ever-present in my upbringing, I'll address it anyway:

- The Old Testament as a creation myth and metaphysical construct shows an extreme lack of imagination.  To anthropomorphize the creator, and to say Earth is the center of creation, and that mankind is the pinnacle and sole purpose of that creation, is way too limiting.  And that's before we get into the "eye for an eye" and all the smiting.

- In the New Testament, The Christ comes to replace the punitive father-god with a god of forgiveness, love, and compassion.  Rather than a dualistic god-creation model, we get the beginnings of a trans-personal idea of consciousness and the divine.  Christian mystics have approached this viewpoint, but the religious establishment and their doctrine don't offer it to the masses.

The idea of a heaven that excludes any of my loved-ones that don't conform is a non-starter.  I find value in other traditions that recognize divinity in all sentient beings, and that seek a trans-personal answer to and/or experience of the mysteries beyond a dualistic "god-out-there" or "good/evil" model.  I'd like to see enlightened bodhisattvas seeking the enlightenment of all sentient beings, rather than a "no one comes to the father except through me" orthodoxy.

Bottom line:  I have faith as a rational conclusion.  Obviously there is something beyond me/us.  And, I have faith as the result of faith-affirming personal experience.  And finally, I have a healthy agnosticism applied to both.  I have faith that there is so much we really can't know in this form.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t1fj8cbQ42w

Yes, Genesis is a myth and Original Sin never happened.  No Fall, no need for "salvation".

Nice little obedience story sure to scare the kids.

What the hell kind of god would punish his created playthings and all their progeny for all time for eating fruit that makes them smart?

Unethical at the very least, you dig?

> I have faith as a rational conclusion.  Obviously there is something beyond me/us.

Respectfully, Dave, I'm wondering how something can be "obvious" when it's beyond us. That doesn't sound rational to me.

Is this the George Michael thread?

https://youtu.be/6Cs3Pvmmv0E

no, it's a troll thread

> Rational ? Too confined a way of thinking. Boring if you will

Some might call reason a God-given gift, but if you think you know better, you ain't going to learn what you don't want to know.

> Respectfully, Dave, I'm wondering how something can be "obvious" when it's beyond us. That doesn't sound rational to me.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.  "Obvious" is a bad choice of words, but, to the extent that faith attempts to explain the mystery of creation, my rational mind tells me that a source beyond understanding is more likely spiritual and/or conscious, as opposed to merely physical/material.  Metaphysical, a being beyond our imagination, and not contained in the "divinely inspired" myths and allegories.  That's just my monkey brain talking.  Very much agnostic of the details, but not an atheist.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Dave. I, too, was raised in the Catholic church, and in fact was a altar boy for a while there. But by the time I hit high school and started asking questions and not getting good answers to my questions, I decided that I was going to have to investigate things for myself and find my own way. I also wouldn't call myself an atheist, but don't know if the word "agnostic" really suits me either. I'm Mike, a questioner and a seeker, who's come to understand that most of life's mysteries will always remain enshrouded in mystery.

I prefer to place my faith in science, which at this point, deals both with the observed and the unobservable, but concede that science has its limits. Physicists say that the expansion of our universe began about 13.7 billion years ago. My rational mind wants to know what happened before that, if there even was a before that, and my mind also wants to know where all the stuff in the universe, both energy and matter, came from. These are puzzles that won't be solved, but I still like to play the game of asking, because that's what my mind does mostly. It questions. In fact, I would rewrite Decartes' most famous line as "I question, therefore I am." Faith, for me, doesn't--and shouldn't--come easily at all.

> Music,, the true rockin religion. Tells ya all you need to know

There was a guy
An underwater guy who controlled the sea
Got killed by ten million pounds of sludge from New York and New Jersey

This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven

The creature in the sky
Got sucked in a hole, now there's a hole in the sky
And the ground's not cold
And if the ground's not cold, everything is gonna burn
We'll all take turns
I'll get mine too

This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven

Rock me, Joey

If man is five
If man is five
If man is five

Then the devil is six
Then the devil is six
Then the devil is six
Then the devil is six

And if the devil is six
Then God is seven
Then God is seven
Then God is seven

This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven
This monkey's gone to heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMH3akt07zs

You don't need to buy to listen, Ras, but that would require an open mind.

And I'm a fan of Roy. He sure could play.

Catholic school education, check, through high school.  I can't quite say it was secular, but they didn't jam religion down out throats.  Ecumenical, we studied comparative religions.

I had a few years of Catholic elementary education (grades 1-4), but it was my freshman year in a Jesuit high school that drove me away from the church.

Which reminds me. I should probably send them a thank-you card for that.

> even mike has to be sick of his lame ass shit by now.

We're not there yet, and won't be anytime soon. Keep flailing away though, Ras. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want.

Hasn't this thread died yet and gone to heaven/nowhere/somewhere else?

This is Sartre's hell, Alan. It's filled with other people.

lol

Just waiting for all the christians to be elevated to heaven. What do they call that? Ascension?   Anyway hope it happens soon. The world will be a much better place.

^ on that note, worthy of a repost

> What do they call that? Ascension?

Jesus did the ascension thing. It's rapture for the masses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHCdS7O248g

https://youtu.be/Xhnf9x-Jfm4

> https://youtu.be/Xhnf9x-Jfm4

That is fucking hysterical, Strawbud. Everybody should click this link. Seriously.

"cause this could be the yr we win district"

One of my favorite Todd stories.  Heard it many times. Always a good one.

And, I was there for that.

> One of my favorite Todd stories.

Don't know how I managed to miss that one, Mark. Great stuff.

> This one will elevate ya

Now we're getting into some real common ground.

> nincompoops

I prefer to think of myself as a knucklehead, thank you very much.

You're praying for us heathens though, aren't you, Ras?

Wow, that sounds exactly like the guy introducing the 2nd set of the Dead at Veneta in 82

lol

No.

By the way, regarding that pic Slacker posted way up at the top of the thread, when did Harry Potter get dreadlocks?

Give it up, Ras. I personally wouldn't give a fuck if Jerry himself (or anyone else) was preaching the puke that you do. To each their own - why can't you be that way? 

Oh, shit! I've gotta return for this. 

Faith: I’m a believer, but I also believe in keeping it personal. And I DEFINITELY believe in keeping it out of politics, although of course that’s not what’s happening. I do appreciate and enjoy my favorite musicians when they bring their spirituality into their music. To me, music is the perfect place for it. 

And that’s all I have on that.

This thread needs that Dude, the Sun is real toon from the Comics thread.

^This thread needs that Dude, the Sun is real toon from the Comics thread.

I thought about posting it here, but preferred seeing this thread sink into oblivion....   but, alas, Ras keeps going all missionary with it...   so...   

Personally, I have no problems with faith (defined as belief without proof), but institutions of religion control I have major problems with.   And as a gay man, who lost a lover to being thrown out of a window by right wingers (the courts didn't care, he wasn't a human after all), and decades of fighting the religious wrong, including the Oregon Citizens alliance, who made us waste shit loads of money fighting their hate, while simultaneously fighting the republican assholes over AIDS (all that $ should have gone to loving care for the suffering), and don't forget every form of persecution, mutilations, and discrimination you could ever want...  I almost hope that there is a god to judge you!  

 I respect the Jimmy Carters of the world, who's day to day actions are about as Christ like as you'll ever find with a politician.  The rest of the arrogant "know it alls" (based on belief without proof), whom's pious condescension based on pure ego and a horrific superiority complex, often based in hate and deep sown bigotries, can go take a lemming walk... meanwhile, I'll continue to help the downtrodden, even if I get assaulted doing so, and do what I can to make our little world a little bit better for my fellow humans (and perhaps the flora and fauna too!).  After all, the sun is real!   

You know the world has gone nuts when Barry Goldwater represents the voice of reason.

((( Noodler )))

I was explaining recently to my son about the early '80s, Reagan, HIV/AIDS, the treatment of human beings by others, the Quilt, etc. He knew, but he didn't know. He didn't know about Reagan's vile neglect, for instance. Fucker. Didn't even get to the OCA.

I'm so sorry about your lover, your loss, about my friends lost both physically and mentally/emotionally, all of them in the name of religion. Religious wrongs. It hurts every time we think of it.

Dr. Noodler's first two paragraphs and his posted qoute are about as spot on as can be. Beautifully said!!!!! The sun is real.

And ver sorry to read about your terrible loss.

¡Happy New Year!

I have a hard time with any religious group who wants me to bow.

(Then again, I have a hard time with Micheal Franti telling me to wave my hands in the air.)

A sway when one prays is understandable, but the full on mandatory bowing and bending down and kneeling is so...so.... demeaning. So man made. So "god as royalty." Fuck that.

Keep in mind that all versions of religion are manufactured, contrived, and maintained by man/people.

Every once in a while he pulls the wings off an angel.  Just 'cuz.

^^another contrived fairy tale? I don't expect that/them to end though with something so wide open to interpretation that is used to more simply explain the more difficult and abstract parts of being alive....and, apparently more importantly, dead.

Trailhead, and anyone else who celebrates, Shana Tovah! I don't but my family does.

Here's a sweet, well done parody, Roshklahoma!, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BInIHDF0Z8o&t=8s

>>>Like I say, 'for me', it's all over our best music<<<

Completed that for ya' ras.

A lotta' derp in this thread, lots from ras, starting with the rambling, bumbling, poorly articulated first post.

Is communicating clearly through writing a lost art?

If not, it's getting there fast.

(((noodler)))

huge condolences over the loss of your love and shudders for all thr other atrocities you have faced

it is like drugs for me

if what you do doesn't bother me or mine or anyone else: have at it

jimmy carter is a top notch example

still~

dogma is a devil

In Ras's case, ignorance is bliss.

Many many generations ago, children would ask questions that no-one could answer.  Not wanting to look stupid, folks made up these fantastic stories to placate their young. When these young'ns grew up, they kept these stories alive, telling their offspring the same stories. After thousands of yrs these stories became widely believed religions. So it goes.

One of my idols, Kurt Vonnegut Jr said, and I am paraphrasing as I don't have the exact quote in front of me,

I try to do the right thing, not because I am worried about an afterlife, but because I believe it is the right thing to do.

Goes with Noodler's phine quote above.

> In Ras's case, ignorance is bliss.

Yeah, that's the path of least resistance, and, of course, the flip side is Knowledge is power.

> One of my idols, Kurt Vonnegut

I'm not given to idolatry, but Vonnegut's my atf writer. Before he passed, Kurt was the honorary president of the American Humanist Society, whose chief organizing principle is this: "We strive to bring about a progressive society where being good without a god is an accepted and respected way to live life." If I had my way, I'd revise that statement to read like this: "We strive to bring about a progressive society where being good without the threat of spending eternity in flames is an accepted and respected way to live life."

In Bali it's the custom for Buddhists - most of the populace - to leave food offerings outside their doors.

The offerings are always eaten by dogs.

Raz, if you haven't seen the movie, Lucky starring Mr. Harry Dean Stanton, ya oughta check it out.

Wait for the discussion concerning the Buddhist during the battles in the Pacific ww2.

I hope you find the time for the movie.

~ sigh~

Trailer for upcoming movie American Theocracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzKc748F34g

^^^^BUMP.

Fuck.That.Noise.

The fact that they support chump is all you need to know.

And ras there is no correlation between intelligence and musical ability.