Here we go in Israel again

can't we all just get along?

Massive intelligence failure on the part of Israel.  Worst since the 1973 Yom Kippur War.  Twitter videos of Hamas overrunning Israeli settlements and loading people up to take back to Gaza are nuts.  They even flew in on swarms of ultralights and motorized paragliders.  This took some immense planning and can't believe they pulled it off.

That being said Palestine just signed its own death warrant.   Just hope Hezbollah doesn't open a second front in Lebanon.  

Can't wait for Roger come justify it all for us

Iran is the only winner in this, and pretty much all of Hamas' weaponry came from them. Hamas' offensive and Israeli counteroffensive effectively halts Saudi Arabia's normalization of relations with Israel, and kills any chance of the concessions Israel was going to make to Palestine. Iran wins.

Roger's not completely wrong in some of his assessments, but he's such a douche about it.

In the meantime, Netanyahu has declared war.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-hama...

Hamas unleashed over 3,000 rockets towards civilians, attacked civilians on the ground, pulled civilians out of their houses and either kidnapped or shot them. There is absolutely no justification for what they did. None.

Since they feel they have to attack and kill people, could they just make targets of the stupid leaders? Like out in the desert or something so civilians aren't hurt.

No, it won't happen like that.

Stop war! Feed people. Get rid of bombs. You know.

^^^You would think that mass non-violent resistance would work better.   While this stunning tactical victory must feel cathartic for Hamas and the people of Gaza right now, you know it will end badly for them. 

250 Israeli dead so far today and they are going to retaliate 100 fold as the IDF is known to do.  Guess Hamas fighters on motorcycles attacked a rave outside a kibbutz mowing down partygoers.   Tel Aviv getting slammed hard too.  

Hamas attacks Israel so Israel and Saudi Arabia will not have formal relations as they were about to do.  Wanted to humiliate the Saudis.  Just wait and see.  Peace between Saudi Arabia and Israel now sooner then later.  Netanyahu will win this struggle.

War pigs suck. 

Supposedly, the act that triggered the Hamas militants was that some radical extremist Israelis "desecrated" an Islamic holy site (that used to be a Jewish holy site) by visiting it.  Really?  Some folks go on a tourist trip, and you unleash an atrocious response that will leave thousands dead and injured?  That's insane.  Now Netanyahu and his hard line war council have their just cause to exact what will surely be a painful retribution on Hamas and what will surely be numerous innocent civilians caught in the crossfire.

The world has enough problems without people's petty twisting of religious dogma to justify their narrative.  Thousands of Afghanis are dead and thousands more are homeless without water or electricity after yesterday's devastating earthquakes near Herat.  That's where our attention and resources should be focused, not on ridiculous war mongering from people who can't live in peace with their neighbors (I'm looking at you too, Russia & Ukraine).

> I'm looking at you too, Russia & Ukraine

Last I heard, Ukraine was invaded by Russia. How is that war mongering?

Can't imagine that he won't completely level the gaza strip for this.   Hopefully, Bullshit patriarchal stories perpetuated within bullshit patriarchal societies regarding who is a better ruler of the universe will die sometime with future generations (evolution),  and it can't come soon enough.

This violent conflict is so exhausting to the soul. It has been going on my whole life. Plenty of blame to go all around, USA included. This iteration is an inflation of the violence, but by no means anything new in a qualitative sense. Those regional leaders who have truly negotiated for realistic progress towards peace between Israel and the Palestinian people have ended up getting assassinated by those who think continued violence will somehow solve the problem. Anwar Sadat (president of Egypt) and Yitzhak Rabin (prime minister of Israel) are two of the biggest examples, but far from the only examples.

To objectively look at the current conflict without honestly analyzing the history behind it all is a fools errand. To argue that one side perpetrates more violence than the other is silly. Check out the history of the Sabra and Shatila massacre as an example of a pretty big stain on the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces).  To be sure this was a big escalation of violence from Hamas and can't be justified. I'm also saying that many of Israel's previous violent attacks (whether on Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, etc.) can't be justified either. Again, plenty of blame to go around. More than likely this back and forth blame game will just continue. So seldom do true peace makers come around. A hundred in the same mold as Benjamin Netanyahu for each Yitzak Rabin in this world. So sad. 

My remarks were referencing the inability of people to live harmoniously, as opposed to who started it, Mike.

"Both sides"ing Ukraine.  Wottatool.

Exhausting to care about other conflicts in the world.  Why do we give any fucks?

Ukraine, like Israel, has every right to defend itself.  It would be better for all if their leaders could figure out how to respect each other's boundaries without military force and bloodshed.  As Neil Young put it, "no one wins, it's a war of man."  Many of the combatants who are killed will have children and grandchildren who are looking to even the score.  Hatred is a vicious cycle.  Love, kindness, and respect are the antidote.  Peace should be the goal, not revenge. 

Why do we give any fucks?<<<
 

Why?   Because Nationalism is a flawed philosophy that has brought endless war and destruction.  We are all connected by our humanity, riding this spaceship Planet Earth together.  Our only hope as a species is to realize and embrace this. 

I appreciate your sentiment.  Keep signing them checks.

> war mongering from people who can't live in peace with their neighbors (I'm looking at you too, Russia & Ukraine)

> My remarks were referencing the inability of people to live harmoniously, as opposed to who started it, Mike.

I don't think you understand the term "war mongering", Dave.

noun: war-mongering

encouragement or advocacy of aggression toward other countries or groups.

adjective: war-mongering

encouraging or advocating aggression toward other countries or groups.

https://www.google.com/search?q=war+mongering+meaning

I could be wrong though. Maybe you can point to a recent example of Ukraine encouraging or advocating aggression toward other countries or groups? Or maybe you're talking about Putin's claim that Ukraine started the current conflict?

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-russia-falsely-blames-ukraine-for-start...

> Why do we give any fucks?

For sport, Racket.

I thought Kushner fixed all this

What's the reason for this again?

Religion

Love the idea of declaring war on the people you currently force to live under your occupation.  That is pretty rich. 

"both sides are right, but both sides murder, I give up, why can't they, I must not think bad thoughts"

X - I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32z8TjXePSQ

idaho is becoming it's own country.

in the 80's I read some new age book (newage sewage (newage is pronounced like sewage)  (copyright, trademark))

that said the book said there are 2 types of aliens trying to influence our evolution

lizard aliens that feed on our anger and chaos

and bird aliens who feed on love

and

there are certain geographical places on earth where they have more ability to use their influence

the middle east is lizard territory according to the book

YMMV

GTTS

There's more birds than lizards where I live.

Whew.

At this point it has nothing to do with religion. It's about Saudi being on the verge of normalizing relations with Israel and recognizing it, which changes the entire 75 year narrative. Most importantly, it paves the way for a real 2 state solution, which has to be predicated on the Arab states recognizing Israel. Certain factions don't want that, nor does Iran.

It would be great if Israel and Saudi move forward, which would be the biggest fuck you to those terrorist pieces of shit and the Ayatollah.

BK, are you forgetting the terrorist pieces of shit from Saudi Arabia who planned and executed 9/11? Or more recently, the execution of Jamal Khashoggi (and countless others) on the orders of MBS? I understand that it's preferable to not have open hostilities between Saudi Arabia and Israel, but normalizing relations rewards the Saudis despite their track record of terrorism.

>>>>>Why do we give any fucks?

Because nukes.

 >>>>>Most importantly, it paves the way for a real 2 state solution

Unfortunately, at this point - that ship has sailed. 

Certainly was never going to happen with Bibi still in charge. ^
 

I'd like to see US aid Israel - but only if Bibi steps aside. Otherwise he's likely to murder every Palestinian in 'retaliation' and line his pockets in the process. 
 

Bibi is Israel's Trump, that is he doesn't have majority support is a corrupt far right POS  and should be in jail. 

The Saudi regime is a murderous piece of shit, no doubt. However, normalized relations created a domino effect that does a ton for peace in the region. Then there's that old adage, your enemy's enemy is your friend. Iran is always in the mix.

And 6 billion dollars richer all a sudden 

>  normalized relations created a domino effect that does a ton for peace in the region

Color me skeptical, and not just because Jared Kushner got paid $2 billion for brokering the arrangement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/10/us/jared-kushner-saudi-investment-fun...

Palestinian protester waves a swastika at anti-Israel rally in New York City's Times Square as thousands of demonstrators take to the

streets across the US - while rockets and gunfire fly in the Middle East. The protester pointed the swastika - the symbol used by Nazis
 

during the Holocaust - at the Israeli counter protesters

Photo from Brandenberg Gate in Germany, from this weekend. 
 

Israel needs to fire Netanyahu and the Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas.  

I don't see Netanyahu surviving this. Egypt is leaking that they warned Israel of a major attack 10 days ago. May or may not be true but the bargain Netanyahu always made was I get to act like an ass but in return I will keep you safe. That is broken now. 

Still don't understand what Hamas was thinking. I worry there is something bad waiting for the inevitable Israel invasion force into Gaza. As one commentator said Hamas is about to find out why Americans don't get universal health care. Hamas just committed mass shooter level suicide. 

I am the son of Holocaust survivor.  At the age 5 years old my father had a gun pointed at his head by a Nazi soldier as he watched his family taken to Auschwitz because he was Jewish.   This experience made him most open and tolerate person I knew and passed those values onto my brother and I. But tolerance and empathy should not be confused with acquiescence or softness. 

Let’s be clear, Hamas has no interest in peace and the comments about disrupting the Saudi Peace agreement are valid.   They have no interest in peace.  They have no concern for their population and as puppets of Iran, they got played by Iran.   The leaders of Hamas knew what would be unleashed on Gaza, but they are in the protective bunkers and Iranians are far from this.  They don’t give a shit about their own people; they just want maintain power. 

They do not allow dissent and only serve to further their own goals and not that of the Palestinian people. 

I am no fan of Netanyahu and the right leaning government, but let’s remember, tens, if not hundreds of thousands turned out to protest the government.  Do you think anti-Hamas protests could ever happen in Gaza without a brutal crackdown, look what happens in Iran if there are protests.   

These images are from a GD Festival in the desert in Israel earlier this year, not unlike the festival that was so brutally attacked .  260 shot dead others abducted. How many of the dead and missing were dancing to the GD in the desert  a few months earlier. 

I

It's a race to the bottom.

And 6 billion dollars richer all a sudden<<

This is bullshit.  You can look it up if you care to.

So we didn't unfreeze those funds,?

the $6 billion is still sitting in the bank untouched and being monitored and can only be used for humanitarian purposes.  So anyone saying that money funded this operation is lying.  That said, Iran can now use other monies to fund terror knowing they can use this $6 billion for food and medicines.  

Ok so my statement stands as correct than 

Yeah Iran made 60 billion in just 2018 from oil sales, but sure the unfrozen 6 billion they got from South Korea is going to start a huge escalation in terrorism. 

Iran has a scumbag government that funds lots of terrorism around the world. They are at war with Israel who has routinely assassinated their top scientists over the last 10 years. They are happy to fund Hamas. Nothing America has done or hasn't done has changed that dynamic since the revolution. 

Iran hasn't gotten $6B from S.K.  Those funds are in an account in Doha.  

At least no one here thinks it's "US taxpayer dollars funding terrorism".  Right?  

I mean, lurkers, sure. 

please leave jerry out of this fucking bullshit.

No one has even suggested that the 6B was used for anything. It's noteable only to me in the "we don't negotiate with terror except when we do" sense. 

I think the point was made above the the 6B is a drop in the bucket compared to what Iran brings in from oil revenues. 

Here is a link to an article that explains how th Trump administration set up the oil waiver program allowing a number of countries to get around sanctions so he can maintain low gas prices here in the US. Allowing China, India , S Korea and others to purchase Iranian oil increasing world supply and keeping oil prices down. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/02/trump-will-grant-8-waivers-to-import-san...

I understood the point and agree with it, no question, that's in addition to my point for bringing it up in the first place.

remember 2017?

https://www.wionews.com/world/israel-vs-hamas-donald-trumps-potential-ro...

Nice link. I'll wait to see if more news media report this. 

Hamas' attack has brought a humanitarian catastrophe upon the civilians of Gaza.  The IDF is eliminating Hamas' leadership and infrastructure as they prepare for a wholesale invasion/occupation and possible annexation.  Lacking the involvement of other states (Iran, Russia) and a widening of the war, they are facing complete annihilation.  I'd wager that your average non-Hamas Gaza civilian would be okay with exchanging the Hamas members for the return of electricity, fuel, food, water, shelter, and peace.  Like Al-Quaeda and ISIS before them, they have signed their own death warrant.

The European and American left Support for Palestine over the last 20 years has been consequence free much like being anti abortion was until Roe was overturned. It's a generation that didn't grow up with the Munich Olympics and Entebbe. We have reverted back to the mean. It will be interesting to see if the supporters adapt.

Pleas don't equate support of the Palestinian people with support of Hamas. 

I think this is right.

Gaza = Sunni = Arabia

Hamas = Shia = Iran

What happened to Ukraine?

This is the SF left. There are DSA members on the SF board of Sups.

Can the US support the junkies too?.

The DSA is correct, the Palestinians have been living under the repressive, violent regime of Hamas and now is thier time to realize that they must liberate themselves from Hamas . 

Yeah that's not what that means

Hamas didn't colonize Palestine

but their existence is the direct result of it

Is it really controversial that the Palestinians, and all oppressed people, have a right to resist and fight for their own liberation. Is that not how our own country started?  I come down on the side of oppressed peoples by supporting the Uyghurs, Kurds, African Americans, Tibetans. Gypsies, Indigenous Americans, and certainly Jewish people. The current situation is that after immense suffering and fighting for their rights and dignity, the Jewish diaspora has been able to obtain self determination with the nation state of Israel. However, in this case the oppressed has become the oppressor.  You would think if any group would understand that oppression will always create resistance, it would be the Jewish people.  I'm quite sure many in Israel don't think being oppressors is a good idea. But the Israeli government, especially since Netanyahu, seems to think that being an oppressor is the way to go.  As Prime Minister he pushed the government to pull the Two State solution off the table.  With that gone in the last decade or more what are the Palestinian People to do?  Just accept living in servitude forever? 

It's a big old mess in the Middle East right now. I don't agree with the escalation of violence that Hamas took, but is was predictable.  I don't think Hamas is the leadership that the Palestinians need.   I also don't believe Netanyahu is the leadership Israelis need.  Just look where this current leadership on both sides has gotten to.  People must say Basta (i.e. enough).  The USA for our part must take a stance and show leadership on producing a two State solution.  This would be extremely hard politically, but it is what both Israel and the Palestinians expressed hope for in the not to distant past. 

In this country I don't think many people appreciate how lucky we were to have a resistance leader like Dr. Martin Luther King.  His leading a moral fight through non-violent protest saved this country from much bloodshed.  If this country doesn't learn from history, the African American resistance movement might not remain a mostly peaceful one. Black Lives Matter is an echoing of the 1960's civil rights movement that is basically saying we as a country have not arrived at the human equality paradigm that Dr. King preached.  Persons are not yet being judged by the content of their character, but still by the color of their skin. We best get to Dr. Kings paradigm of true equality or the original sin of racism and slavery will yet bring us down. It is so sad because it doesn't have to be this way.  Full legal recognition of rights for African Americans was a great start in the 1960's, but I think most Americans know we still have plenty of hard work to do until all Americans are judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.  

Over in the middle East the Palestinian People have not even gotten to the point of having full human rights on paper. They are basically second class humans living under an amoral occupation. I don't see but two paths forward, one is a hellscape.  Either let the Palestinians have a truly independent state or slowly annihilate them all.  I believe the current Prime Minister of Israel would be comfortable with the second path.  I really hope I am wrong on that point.  For a population that itself faced the real threat of total annihilation, it is quite a situation.  Israel could end up causing a genocide and take its place in history alongside Pol Pot. the Ottoman genocide of Armenians. as well as other examples not noted here. Human history sure has an ugly side. 

 The oppressor's soul dies little by little the more comfortable they become with oppressing.  Take a look at some lynching pictures from the USA with crowds of White folks standing around looking at the Black people they just hung.  Those people are on the path of becoming dead inside. We somehow managed to get off that path as a country by being pushed in the right direction by African Americans. We are currently backsliding some when it comes to full civil rights for all, but I'm cautiously optimistic that our county will take the moral path. I have no idea how this mess in the middle east will go. Lets hope moral leaders will arise on all sides.   

Is it really controversial that the Palestinians, and all oppressed people, have a right to resist and fight for their own liberation<<<

Was Ghandi wrong to embrace non-violent civil disobedience?

Do we know for sure Hamas wasn't being "used" (to some extent or another) by bad actors on the world stage such as Putin?

Russia bad.

Israel good.

>>I don't agree with the escalation of violence that Hamas took

That is a very nice sentence for beheading babies. Shooting children in front of their parents and shooting parents in front of their children. Taking children hostage. Raping women and parading them naked through the streets. Nothing Israel has done deserves that response. What I don't see is a whole lot of Palestinians denouncing it. Instead I see pictures of Palestinians living in San Francisco smiling and holding up swastikas. 

I don't support Israel and certainly not anyone in the current government. They have lost their way, but what Hamas did in the name of Palestine is sick, and no history comes anywhere close to making it acceptable. 

Do we know for sure Hamas wasn't being "used" (to some extent or another) by bad actors on the world stage such as Putin

Bibi funded Hamas off and on much like USA did Isis. So....yes they were "used" by bad actors and vs/vs

That is a very nice sentence for beheading babies.

Except that was a made up story. Israel's defense dept said here's no evidence that actually happened.
If it helps make you feel better IDF killed over 200 Palestinian children in the last 48 hours.

The images of the dead infants were included in the video played to NATO. It was not released to the public, but was later seen by Reuters in Jerusalem. Reuters could not independently verify the material.

"They were horrific pictures of the attacks and the victims of the attacks," NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters, saying it "confirmed the brutality of the attacks".

The White House said it had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the images.

international human rights organisations and journalists have documented that militants killed women, children and the elderly as well as young men and soldiers in their rampage.

https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-ministers-shown-horrific-video-hamas-...

there is a really old story about an eye for an eye or something...

If I'm learning anything from these series of events it's that we truly have no consensus reality anymore. We're all plugged in to the greatest information sharing system in history, and yet otherwise reasonable people can't seem to agree on what's happening or why it's happening.

I really thought the internet was going to end all wars

Naively believed that the truth would be immediately transparent to the world

thus stopping conflict

Please understand your history when you throw around terms like "colonize" and the historical context of the creation of Israel.  Gaza has been been occupied and repressed by Hamas,  a terrorist organization no different than ISIS.  They have no respect for human life of their own people and use them as human shields.  They throw opposition party members of the roofs of buildings.   Israel did not start the War of Independence, or the Yom Kippur war.  

Dylan got it right 

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully.
Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits for feed
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.

Bob Dylan 

Naively believed that the truth would be immediately transparent to the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE 

Lol understand history. The Isrealis have been oppressing the Palestinians for thousands of years. Hamas is the result of that oppression. You would think a group of people who have been persecuted so badly would have more sympathy in their hearts. No let's cage them into a desert with no hope for prosperity. 

From Amnisty International 

Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law. Israeli forces launched a three-day offensive on the occupied Gaza Strip in August during which they committed apparent war crimes. This compounded the impact of a 15-year ongoing Israeli blockade that amounts to illegal collective punishment and further fragments Palestinian territory. Israel escalated its crackdown on Palestinians’ freedom of association. It also imposed arbitrary restrictions on freedom of movement and closures that amounted to collective punishment, mainly in the northern West Bank, ostensibly in response to armed attacks by Palestinians on Israeli soldiers and settlers. The year saw a rise in the number of Palestinians unlawfully killed and seriously injured by Israeli forces during raids in the West Bank. Administrative detentions of Palestinians hit a 14-year high, and torture and other ill-treatment continued. Israeli forces demolished al-Araqib village in the Negev/Naqab for the 211th time. A further 35 Palestinian-Bedouin towns in Israel were still denied formal recognition and residents faced possible forcible transfer. Authorities failed to process asylum claims for thousands of asylum seekers, and imposed restrictions on their right to work.

Keith my friend,  please open an book and read about the historical inhabitants of  Israel.  When you say Israelis have been oppressing Palestinians for thousand of years it shows your true ignorance on the subject.  We were too busy being slaves in Egypt to oppress anyone. 

You would think a group of people who have been persecuted so badly would have more sympathy in their hearts. No let's cage them into a desert with no hope for prosperity<<<

Is there a reason you're questioning the sympathy of all Jews as a group?

Reuters could not independently verify the material.

364 dead Palestinian children this week. The number just keeps going up as Israel genocides Gaza. 

as Israel genocides Gaza<<<

Genocide?  Really?

When your leadership  makes you a human shield and places rockets on rooftops of apartment buildings, in schools, hospitals,  innocents will get killed.  It is horrifying. But is  Israel just supposed to let rockets fly from Gaza.   

It's amazing more civilians have not been killed with the bombing that is happening, that is because Israel warns before they bomb, they  s ends texts, drop  leaflets .  Israel does more to prevent civilian deaths in Gaza then Hamas. 

So after Israel kills hamas

The Palestinians will finally be set free!

right?

because why wouldn't they?

When it says Reuters can not independently verify the pictures it means they weren't there -  not that they didn't see the pictures that a NATO official said is true. 

Yes what is happening in Gaza now is horrific and should stop. Is anyone in the world surprised by the response.  No - any literate person knows this is exactly what Israel would do after this attack and yet Hamas went ahead anyway. So not only did they indiscriminately kill Israelis, not only are they calling on everyone to kill Jews across the world not Israelis Jews - they condemned their own people to being bombed and for what? How in any way does this attack help the Palestinian people. 

The Palestinians are an oppressed people in a world awash in oppressed people. Israel isn't going anywhere, and if your starting point in fixing the problem is that Israel needs to not exist you have no interest in solving the problem only in perpetuating a war of despair on your own people. 

This Saturday, my cousins will be attending a memorial service on their moshav for three children "butchered" by Hamas attackers on Saturday. The children were part of a group who were on a nature hike near Ashkelon. Almost all of the other children and parents were wounded during the attack. I quoted butchered, because that is the word my cousin used when I contacted him see if the family was safe.

All the politics aside, there is no excuse to attack innocent people. Period. I don't want to get into this too much, because I found out when I lived in Israel during the Yom Kippur war, Americans don't know shit about what's happening there. I expect it's the same now. I only rely on information I get from family and friends there.

I will say this, though. From my own experiences and from trusted people who have never lied to me, there are some human beings, if you can call them that, that are pure evil and do horrific things to other human beings. I don't think one can even call them animals, because I don't know of any animal that would maim, rape, torture, and kill for no reason, other than some kind of depravity.

As soon as I saw the news on Saturday, I knew and I'm still sure this current situation will not fix a damn thing or bring the world closer to any kind of peace as long as there are people who are willing and able to commit horrific, disgusting acts of violence like what happened on Saturday.

.
 

It's 2023. Anyone who says Israel has no right to exist is simply anti-Semitic. It has as much right as the other 100 nations also created by colonial powers, including most of the Arab countries in the Middle East. It's the only one that people constantly pick on as having no right of being, in spite of the fact that many others have had worse internal issues than Israel/Palestinians. If they'd get their heads out of their asses they'd maybe recognize their own internal anti Semitism,

ParadiseWaits - You seem to hung up an fact that there may or may not have been misreporting about the gruesome deaths of babies, of babies.  Do you feel Hamas is somehow vindicated that the babies were only shot and burned and not beheaded.  What's your point?

BrianK - Well Put

Who did we kill after sandy hook to prevent uvalde, Sutherland springs church, Virginia tech, pulse nightclub, Vegas concert? 

ParadiseWaits - You seem to hung up an fact that there may or may not have been misreporting about the gruesome deaths of babies, of babies.  Do you feel Hamas is somehow vindicated that the babies were only shot and burned and not beheaded.  What's your point?

because the story is being used to give isreal a moral high ground and to help stir up stronger emotional responses in people. for days people have been acting like hamas just increased the depravity levels of the conflict because they "beheaded babies", now everyone wants to talk about how it doesnt matter how they died as if the news story hadnt been paraded around for days as evidence isreal has some kind of moral high ground specifically because of the beheading aspect. the issue thats being brought up by highlighting misinformation isnt that someone is better or worse, the issue is propaganda.

You're a bit backwards there, Benway. The initial outrage was over a massive terrorist attack that targeted civilians, including women and children, and killed over 1,000. The outrage was also at the verified way they were massacred. It was over the taking of hostages. That outrage never wavered, and the stories of babies didn't change shit. It's pretty simple - it was a horrific terrorist attack. 

The patently anti-Semitic left has twisted that baby shit to vilify Israel and take away the right to respond. 

> The patently anti-Semitic left

Wait, what? Are you saying the Left as a whole is anti-Semitic, BK? Or are you saying that certain people with liberal views are anti-Semitic, and if so, who for example?

I'm too baked to do it justice, but Google, "Anti Semitism amongst the left." You May or may not agree, but it's pretty well documented.

https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_faces:center,h_537,w_822/...

Basically.

ParadiseWaits: This what Republicans do when they have no defense, they gaslight or find something to distract from the real issue or the truth.

 Babies were killed in this terrorist attack, that's all any decent person needs to know to give the moral high ground to Israel. 

Propaganda;  It is Hamas who released the gruesome images of their atrocities to use as propaganda to promote themselves.  The filmed it all.  

Profiling works.

I'm guessing there will be babies dead on both sides of this conflict before the end. Is it all justified as long as you're not the one who fired first? Nobody's right if everybody's wrong 

the world has a long history of responding to dead innocents with more dead innocents. Andre has a red flag...

i am a free palestine camper

they are "living" in an open air prison, and mercilessly have been under the rule of those who were given their land by other colonizers for 75 years.

and why don't we care?

same as Syria v Ukraine

Ukranians are whites.

Arabs and Browns will always be hated by those in Power

i detest all the israel propping up and acting, since 1947, as if Hitler wanting to exterminate them gave them carte blanch to immediately run rampant in Gaza over other folks' lives, and, now, likely ultimately extinguishing them. pretty cray historical irony, i say.

i am not anti semitic, as bernie says, i am anti regime and zionism

anyone who wants to throw hamas in my face, i so much doubt they are hiding out in Gaza. the only ONLY ones suffering there are innocents. And, israel created them, and now they have a sweet scapegoat for their warcrimes against humanity

I've been waiting for something to happen
For a week or a month or a year
With the blood in the ink of the headlines
And the sound of the crowd in my ear
You might ask what it takes to remember
When you know that you've seen it before
When a government lies to a people
And a country is drifting to war

And the shadows on the faces
Of the men who send the guns
To the wars that are fought in places
Where their business interest runs

On the radio talk shows and T.V.
You hear one thing again and again
How the U.S.A. stands for freedom
And we come to the aid of a friend
But who are the ones that we call our friends...
These governments killing their own
Or the people who finally can't take anymore
And they pick up a gun or a brick or a stone

And there are lives in the balance (there are)
There are people under fire (there are)
There are children at the cannons (there are)
And there is blood on the wire

The shadows on the faces
Of the men who fan the flames
Of the wars that are fought in places
Where we can't even say the names

They sell us the President the same way
They sell us our clothes and our cars
They sell us everything from youth to religion
The same time they sell us our wars
I want to know who the men in the shadows are
I want to hear somebody asking them why
They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are
But they're never the ones to fight or to die

And there are lives in the balance (there are)
There are people under fire (there are)
There are children at the cannons (there are)
And there is blood on the wire

Words from another time and place seem to fit again and again year after year....

Case in point, Mike. Does that explain it?

And I'll say it, JLP. Your list is sickening, filled with false history, false facts, and anti Semitic tropes. You hit every big one in that post.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwe6Eq5E87I

What Jill said. 

Point taken, BK, but I'm still not seeing the entire Left as being anti-Semitic.

I did as you suggested, and googled "Anti Semitism amongst the left" and found out that the phenomena does exist, but I wouldn't call it comprehensive, or even close. Quite a few folks on the Far Left seem to be clearly anti-Zionist, and I understand that some draw an equivalence between that and anti-Semitism, but that seems kind of extreme to me.

A small but very loud faction of the left, Mike. It's not just here. The British Labor Party has been torn apart by anti Semitism within the Party.

Look at the "party line" language JLP used. It's riddled with falsehoods and anti Semitism, and it's pretty standard. First, the whole, "Bernie said it and he's Jewish, so I can too" is sickening. Bernie is far more nuanced and has a million times better understanding of the history. Then there's the Ashkenazi-centric and false history. Israel wasn't just a refuge for Holocaust survivors. Over 60% of Israeli Jews are Sephardic, native to the Middle East. They didn't just come in on boats from German DP camps, many had been there for generations.

That last fact shows the fallacy of the claim it's White over Brown. The Sephardim are just as brown as the Palestinians. And then there's the genocide bullshit. Israel has never committed genocide on the Palestinians, and there's zero indication they ever will. The hat shit is millennia old blood libel.

A very overlooked fact is in the late 1940's 600,000 Jews were forcibly expelled from their ancestral homes in Arab states. Half were let into the West. Where were the other 300,000 supposed to go? When Israel gets disbanded, as people like Jill want, do they get a right to return, safety, and reparations in Arab countries? What happens to the hundreds of thousands whose families had been living on Israeli lane for centuries? They get driven into the sea, right?

So yeah, JLP's post is the party line from the far left. It's the same shit they the pro Hamas protesters are saying. Much of it is predicated on false history and anti Semitic tropes. Those innocent Jews deserved to die because Israel exists. There's no viable solution or pathway to peace, just falsehoods and blaming the Jews. 

The people who get it get it. It's not that complicated. 

It was a brilliant move by the Israeli govt to tie the religion and the country together so that any criticism of the government can be defined as persecution regardless of policy direction. Not everyone who wants peace for ALL on earth is anti semitic or against the people. 

No, but when they use lies, false history and anti Semitic tropes they're pretty much anti Semitic. People like Jill aren't focusing on specific policies or actions and looking at them with a critical and truthful eye. They are simply blaming Israel for being.

Your post is pretty ignorant too, so whatever. "Brilliant move by the State of Israel..." Holy fuck on that silliness. Yeah, they created a Jewish state so the Jews can do what they want with impunity and not be criticized. Seriously, holy fuck.

I fucking love it when Gentiles define anti Semitism to downplay their own anti Semitism. Do you also tell BIPOC what is and isn't racism?

If I'm for peace for everyone on the planet than what am I?

You seem to be someone who blames Israel alone for the lack of peace in the Middle East. If Israel wasn't there it'd all be solved, right?

That's awful presumptive of you. Guess the ignorance is contagious 

It wasn't a rhetorical question, and I welcome an answer.

Anti semitism and Middle East unrest have both existed for millennia, predating Israel enough that I feel pretty confident that they would still exist in the absence of the other.

On that we agree. We probably agree on viable solutions, too.

Very likely. 

Can we agree that hat there will never be peace unless both sides accept the sovereignty of the other and don't fuck with agreed on borders?

If so, can we agree that there will never be a viable 2 state solution as long as Hamas is in the picture, and also as long as Israel allows illegal expansion of settlements?

Hamas and Hezbollah are serious problems.

I do agree with that. My criticism is only to ensure the survival of everyone who just wants to live in peace, be they Israeli, Palestinian, Iranian, Iraqi, American, or anyone else. Idealistic maybe but I believe in basic human rights for everyone.

On that I agree. Most people just want to live in peace. Most Israelis do. Most Palestinians do.

This war is making for strange bedfellows.

Apparently Republicans, Hindus and Christians are now allies with the Jewish people. At the same time blaming the 'woke' liberals'  for the mess in the region.
 

My neighbor who is a conservative Republican Hindu was on her way to a rally in support of Israel and  knows I'm Jewish and Liberal. I had to explain that most of us absolutely support Israel and condemn Hamas terrorism. Demonstrating concern for innocent Palestinians and advocating for a 2 State solution in no way lessens our support. 
 

she watches Fox News, where she's getting that 'woke'  BS.
 

And sure, there are 'woke'  among the  'I'm not antisemitic, but..'  crowd  that Fox is quick to seize upon to paint  us  liberals the same.  
 

antisemitism rears it's ugly head in the strangest of places 

must be a conundrum for the far right who rally with Nazi slogans who will now form allies with the 'woke' fringe in opposition to Jewish lives and Israel. 

PS

can someone explain what  Jared Kushner did to achieve  peace?

To be critical of Hamas is not an anti-Palestinian stance.  Likewise to be critical of the Israeli government is not anti-semetic. Nor is criticizing the US government unamerican.  For anyone to say they respect democracy, but then try shutting down free speech by intimidating freedom of speech or freedom of the press is extremely hypocritical.  How people in power react to opinions that differ from their own speaks loudly about whether they really lean toward authoritarianism or democracy.  

The authors of our Constitution definitely got some things very wrong, but they also got many things right.  Our 1st amendment is a fundamental concept for helping Democracies to sustain themselves in my opinion.  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech. or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." 

I'm not sure which Middle Eastern countries have a similar 1st amendment and which ones don't.  But in my opinion they would all benefit if all had one. The tensions and violence that we experience in this country related to our racial and religious divides would be many time worse if we had no 1st amendment.  I don't know if this country would still exist as a Democracy if we had no 1st amendment.  I would even go so far as to say the USA shouldn't give foreign aid to any county that doesn't have a similar analog in their constitution.  How is that for being an arrogant American?

>When Israel gets disbanded, as people like Jill want<

oy, vey...this is why we can't have nice things.

>The people who get it get it. It's not that complicated.

This statement I totally disagree with. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is extremely complicated.  That is the main reason the conflict continues.  I would say it is the opposite of a black and white issue.  It is one big gray mess. And getting messier

To clarify, Jill's post was literally all mistruths and anti Semitic tropes. That was okay. Me calling it out is the reason we can't have nice things.

brian its extremely hard if not impossible to take you seriously when basic criticism of isreal cause you to whine and moan about antisemitism. seems like any mention of a jewish person or government misusing their power causes you to jump to the conclusion that there is some kind of conspiratorial antisemetic tropes going on, which is obviously absurd.

And then there's the genocide bullshit. Israel has never committed genocide on the Palestinians, and there's zero indication they ever will. The hat shit is millennia old blood libel.

comparing accusations of palestinian genocide to blood libel is equally absurd. blood libel is a very specific trope limited to accusations of religious, ritual murder of children - thats why its brought up in the context of qanon conspiracies. accusing the government of isreal of violence is not related to blood libel at all, get real dude. 

ive looked into left wing antisemitism as you sugested many times, not just recently, and mostly what i find are reports of a very tiny number of fringe, totally marginalized left wing voices saying things that are antisemetic, mixed in with antisemitism with no verifiable political origin, and harsh criticisms of isreal and zionism. its not very convincing that the main rebuttal to criticismsof the govnernment or isreal seems to just be crying and bloviating about made up antisemitism.

I applaud your deep knowledge of anti Semitism. You have it all figured out and can tell the whiny and bloviating Jews why they're wrong. 

 Not one person in this thread has picked a specific Israeli governmental policy and focused on it as a topic of discussion. There is no policy of genocide.  Both "colonization" and "apartheid state" are highly charged term and do not explain the situation. They can be debated, but not by people who are so sure. Zionism isn't a policy, and at this point, what exact does it mean to be "anti Zionist?"

If people have specific policies they want to discuss, have it it. All that other crap is bullshit.

As a polyatheist, former world traveler, and peace activist, I find all of it sad, repugnant, and gut wrenching at times.  There's a lot of blood on many hands.  

"All politics is local", so i'd never dream of thinking I have a clue about what goes on in other parts of the world, especially after living abroad...  most folks don't know what's going on in their own neighborhoods half the time.  We're dependent of getting accurate information to inform our opinions, and channel surfing this recent violence has been extremely disappointing...  same for internet searches.  Too much propaganda and people doing the "what if" game.  All too common at the start of any disaster.  

Any suggestions for good sources of information on these human catastrophes?  My brother in law was in Beirut back in 82 during the start of that war.  All the horrific stories he had to tell, including the death of many hundreds of people, never made it to the western press.  So hard to have an accurate conversation, if nobody knows about it (and he counted bodies, er, heads, so it's not just opinion nor exaggeration). 

I did a few searches after reading this thread.  I'm not stating an opinion, just what came up.  I root for the safety and health of all people, and usually am very suspect of all governments / institutions / systems of control.  Being suspicious of authority is a pretty common deadhead dogma! 

So please don't take offense with me, on the links i'm posting, it's controversy for the group to discuss, or not.

One love to everyone!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Hamas_attacks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_military_activities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_the_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

It's a very incomplete search, and I've found Wiki to be wrong at times (remember republicans trying the edit history every time Sarah Palin F'd up, shameful!!!)

Can we agree that hat there will never be peace unless both sides accept the sovereignty of the other and don't fuck with agreed on borders?<<<

Signed!

But what is a "side"?

In general terms, if there are always a few bad apples in every bunch, how many bad apples in a bunch does it take to conclude the entire bushel is "rotten"?

If Trump somehow gets into office again and initiates military action to invade & steal Greenland, would it be fair for the world to say the "American side" is responsible; even though the majority of the popular vote in 2024 is against Trump?  Should those of us who know better "do whatever it takes" to remove Trump from office (knowing what we now know about him) in order to keep our own house in order, or do these things often play out in a "Masters of War" sort of way?

Another thing to contemplate:  how many wars have ever been initiated by a direct vote of the entire population?

I can't discuss specific policies of Israeli government.  I readily admit to being ignorant on the governing details. My opinions on Middle East issues and problems come through a biased lense of American journalism. And most of that is mainstream media which I fully admit is usually lacking for in depth analysis. Occasionally I'll visit Fox news to get a view of events from a Right perspective and that is almost never much help to me.  I find their coverage of world events very predictable, always twisted and viewed through their ideological lense, which is a well known entity by this time. I used to listen to 'Democracy Now' quite frequently, but not so much any more.  Not sure why.  Even through that broadcast definitely leans Left, it would none the less inform me with viewpoints and information that weren't so predictable just based on the ideological leanings of the show.  

The above stated, I do think I get enough facts to at least have a minimal idea of some of the larger political issues of this world in which I exist.  I have some understanding of the difference between Democratic governments and Authoritarian governments.  There are currently political leaders in this country as well as Israel that lean much more towards Authoritarian rule than Democratic rule. When very large portions of Israeli citizens protest regularly for the better part of this year against Netanyahu and his plan to limit Judiciary power, then I stand with the protesters.  I figure they know way more about what is going on in their country than I do. They are saying Netanyahu is acting more like an authoritarian than a Prime Minister in a functioning Democracy.  

In this country I believe I get enough input from news, friends, and acquaintances to know that our Democracy is well under threat from Trump and his Republican followers. I've seen and heard enough over the last 8 years to convince myself that this political movement is an Authoritarian one.  So I stand on the side of Democracy and say fuck Trump and those that follow him, and fuck Netanyahu and his followers.  From the little I know about Hamas they sound like Authoritarians and not really interested in the Palestinian people who they represent.  So fuck them also. 

So this is my reality when viewing the current war between Israel and Hamas. I stand with all people who want peace and think Democratic governments are the best governmental entities we have to date.  For folks like Hamas, Netanyahu, and Trump who wrap themselves in Democracy for self preservation, but clearly lean towards Authoritarianism, I say fuck them and their breath.  They can all go sit in Putin's hot tub and screw each other.  The Chinese leader can join them. I think Hamas and Netanyahu are bringing great pain to the people they represent, but neither care.  Both are blinded by the worst of human attributes. I feel a little better after typing this, thanks everyone for letting me share. 

War, violence, and oppression are seldom the answer to anything in my opinion. On whatever scale.  WW II seems like the last war that absolutely had to be fought. I plead historical ignorance on all wars prior to that. But I really do think the world would be a better place without war and I'm still naive (or possibly wise)  enough to believe in that possibility.  And though I'm not religious in any traditional sense, I'll still quote Bible verses to when I agree with them.  "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. '  No, if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads. Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good."  (Romans 12 v. 19 - 21)

Bombs, bullets, this seems to be true. I feel certain that killing people is wrong, whatever you use to do it, and whatever reasons you think of.

An Italian friend (in Italy) posted this this morning.

This news has been crushing. Sending love to anyone with family there.

Nancy, agree, I'd love to know what Kushner did to create peace and more likely -- how he profited. 

what is generational trauma?

https://www.talkspace.com/blog/generational-trauma/

What happened to Ukraine?

Is that not the war we support?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-praises-vladimir-putin-russias-15055252...

Putin, the peacemaker? (cough) 

bk is THE middle east expert here people. get it straight.

also, i'm rubber you're glue...

I'm rubber, you're an anti-semite 

“We cannot accept people from Gaza into this country as refugees. I am not going to do that. If you look at how they behave, not all of them are Hamas, but they are all anti-Semitic,” DeSantis, a GOP presidential candidate, said Saturday during a campaign stop in Iowa.

yes. ANYthing said is anti-semetic, got it.. must be terrific living in such a black and white world view.

You know those Hamas guys parading that dead looking naked rave girl around in the back of a pickup? And spitting on her? And shouting God is Great! the whole time?

I hope the Israeli troops find them and put them in a small cage in the hot desert sun with a couple sharp knives so that they would have to kill and eat each other, Fuck those animals.

People equate Israel and Jews. I can see why, but that's usually a false equivalency -- one is a country and one is a religion. Sounds obvious, right?

My friend Solomon would say, "Do you hate me because of the country I reside in and its governmental policies? Or do you hate me because I don't believe in the teachings of Jesus or Muhammad? Or is it because I'm not blonde and blue-eyed? Or because many of my ancestors were small business merchants and traders, which meant your family had to pay them their hard earned money for goods at some point?........It's not MY fault."

So I ask you, if you're gonna be hating big on one side or another, please state your reasons. Nobody here likes baby killers.

Sorry to offend you, Turts.

Let's get to the point, something that one needs no expertise to understand, Genocide. By absolutely no metrics has Israel done anything genocidal in 75 years. There are no policies or actions to that effect, no data to back it up. So help me understand, why does that accusation get bandied about so casually? What's the end, the purpose of such a mistruth?

Its very different than talking about a policy of disproportionate response, or potential humanitarian crises as a result. Those are real and things we can all see, the things we agree on. It's very different to  try to figure out what both sides need to do for peace than it is to simply say it's all one's fault for being.

And seriously, what does anti Zionist mean, and why does it matter? It's a fucking country and it's also a "Jewish homeland." Like it or not, it isn't going away. Most countries in the world are religious ethnostates. So what?

Brian, can we issue a check for Slacker instead of Ukraine and Israel?

He seems like a good guy.

Last March, I got the chance to visit the Martin Luther King National Historical Park in Atlanta, Georgia, a lasting memorial to a man who dedicated his life to the principles of non-violence.  It was a powerful experience that day.  Now as we all struggle to make sense of all the violence and division in our world, it may help some to reflect on these principles that Dr. King advocated:

https://nmmlksc.org/principles-of-nonviolence/#:~:text=Nonviolence%20acc....