Hillary would have crushed covid

Obama would have stared Covid-19 down at the US border with righteous indignation radiating from her eyes like liquid lightning lashing out and that virus would have turned tail (or the viral equivalent), and run right back to where it came from. You don't have to dream it though; you can take that to the bank. Of course, it's Michelle I'm talking about, but Barry would be somewhere in the background lounging on a low, soft leather sofa with a cool drink in a tumbler in his hand and a smug grin on his face, and why shouldn't he? He earned it.

Teddy Roosevelt would have jumped off his horse, wrestled it into the mud, and then string it up a tree and field dress it.

Too bad her plan didn't entice enough votes to get the job. 

Past Presidents...

https://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/how-us-presi...

hrc lost to donald trump. 

always remember that. 

bernie lost to hrc

AND

joe biden

just remember that, now he plays the sweet little suck up pretender role

>>hrc lost to donald trump. 

>>always remember that. 

On the hatred ticket alone

Trump was Impeached 

Never Forget That

Republican Senators complicit in the crime! 
Voters will Never Forget That.

The New Speedway - more Deader than thou or not troll boogie.

bernie was cheated out -- big difference, thod. nobody expects you to understand that tho -- you were all in for warren, who couldn't even win over her own state lol. 

and that post shows your true contempt for bernie -- like when it's cool, hate when it's time. 

tool. 

<<<>>>On the hatred ticket alone

agreed -- her hatred towards the working class, unions, poc, science, the middle east, the environment, etc. 

bad stuff. 

It's like Deja vu, all over again.

>>> you were all in for warren, <<<

I'm still all in on Warren (winky face)

I know that makes you mad, lol

Pyramid feels cheated 

that might partially explain  the constant hate ........

remember when.....

imagine if we had the opportunity to vote for a candidate that was at the forefront of the civil rights movement and had actively worked to bring about change since they were in college. (not a former goldwater girl - hilldawg, or whatever warren was)...if you have to work on or evolve your basic moral and political compass past your college years, that's telling.

imagine if we had a credible shot of overhauling our medical system at this point and time?

imagine if we gave the bailout $$'s to Mom and Pop Shop's instead of Applebee's and corporate fucks?

oh well.

best we can hope for is the continuation of neo-liberal world policies and fire the orange wanna-be musolini ....

might be the same joe biden...

but, if we don't sit on our hands and push the fucker to do something for the people.

we might get somewhere

things have drastically changed just in 3 years

with all the social awakening due to all the shit that's happened

people are pushing back and we got to keep pushing

Imagine, Turtle, a system in which any president of the US had the power to do any of that stuff.

I' s said it before and I'll say it again: most, if not all of those reforms have to come from Congress. Otherwise you get lame Executive Orders that are easily overturned.

The President may be the most powerful single person in the country, but their power is limited. Lament that Biden isn't Bernie all you want, but it.'s a fallacy that Bernie could have done those things you listed above.

And golly, to discount someone because of what they believed years ago vs now?

100,00 lives saved and all the bernie bro's can think or talk about is their bitterness from their failed candidate and delusional utopia. Sad.

wait, do you mean 100,000 lives saved...in your imaginary hillary world? pretty strange to accuse others of living in a delusional utopia because they cant aknowledge or discuss the hard data and numbers on covid-19 in your imaginary hillary scenario

what even the fuck

also dont understand what unusually bitter about wishing for a candidate who has spent his entire life fighting for reform in almost all the areas that are hardest hit and/or revealed as totally broken by the coronavirus pandemic?

its like covid was a person, read bernies platform, and decided "oh cool im gonna go fuck up and destroy all the institutions bernie has been working his whole life to reform"

right larry?

look bk, as we have seen...it all starts from leadership at the top. what he could get through or not we will not know. i do know he's not bought and sold as most are. he's not afraid to call the shit out. that has impact. however it was clear from the onset, that the insurance and pharm industries, in particular, where not going to let him become the candidate.

look, getting the titanic back to point at a further iceberg is "better"...as we are currently crashing into one, but please stop with the delusional Joe is going to do the people's work...it's disingenuous at best...

>>>>>it all starts from leadership at the top. 

That's why under her bold and and awe inspiring leadership, Hillary would have been able to convince all the naysayers and freedom loving Americans across the land to understand the seriousness of the problem and the importance of obediently staying locked down and following all of the recommended precautions. 

I disagree that it starts from leadership at the top. It's nothing personal, I just disagree. I think that when there are more Progressives in Congress, and in state legislatures, there will then be a viable Progressive candidate for President.

Joe wouldn't do the "people's work." That's not who he is. He would, however, do more for the people than would Trump. They aren't the same, and this nation is far more nuanced than an analogy to the Titanic hitting a new iceberg. You may disagree with me on that.

haha. 

centrists are as insane as trumpers. 

fucking wild. 

<<<<>>>>but, if we don't sit on our hands and push the fucker to do something for the people. we might get somewhere

haha. wow. honestly, if you didn't vote for bernie in the primary, you fucking sat on your hands and helped corporate america get what they wanted -- a candidate that doesn't care about anything other than enriching themselves and their friends and donors. 

biden wants to give the police more toys, more money, more. 

we can't have healthcare tho. 

shame on democrats who fought harder to smear bernie than fight for basic human rights. 

Before Trump was POTUS, he was already above the law. 

None of you know shit. So you can seen-into the future that never was, huh?? No one knows for sure how any one would have responded. We can assume and project which os what we all are so good at. But, I  believe we ALL know a can of tuna fish would have done a better job than Trump. 

Country would have been hit hard by Covid, regardless. 
 

It doesn't matter who the president is. The rich will get richer. The wars will continue. Workers rights and wages will continue decline. It's our country as a whole which is the real problem. It's owned by companies and investments. We have a consumer based economy where if the people are shoving junk in their faces and and buying a whole bunch of crap that we don't truly need then the think mask starts to show it's real faces much like what's happening now. Keep chasing your tail around and around and you'll end up back in the same spot every time. That's what the two party system is designed for. It's a round and a round movement of distraction. In the end, things have steadily gotten worse and worse. The only things that have changed which were beneficial were where the rich could make a profit. That's it. It's all a game played on a stage and you always have a ticket for a seat in your couch to watch the show. Enjoy.

Kill Your Amazon account.

Timpy hates the 2 party system, rightly so, but still doesn't think that Bernie should have ran as a 3rd party candidate.

You still don't get it: until a viable candidate runs in a 3rd party, we are stuck with what we have. I've been saying this about Bernie since 2016. He isn't a Democrat, he has a following, and he fucked up, on many levels, by running as a Democrat. And all his acolytes blame the DNC for taking away his chance? No, blame him. He had a way better chance running as a third party candidate.

The moderates who chose a moderate path are not to blame. It's always the progressives for being into minorities. 

I really love the whole anger issue over the debate about Hillary's imaginary response to Covid. THAT was classic zoning right there.

But so long as we're playing that game, what about Bernie's reaction to Covid? If Bernie was president now he probably would be a long ways in to implementing a massive public healthcare network that works, and for those who are still not covered, he would have pulled emergency measures right at the beginning of the situation because, you know, science, and therefore I predict he would have reduced the deaths by at least 125 to 130,000. Thereby beating Hillary's estimate by 25,000. Fuck yeah, Bernie!

As for a President not having influence or power over what happens below them, that's just baloney, BK. Presidents are not elected because there's a massive base of support for their policies in Congress or Senate. Since Trump has become president he has empowered far right politicians in the US and the world in ways that are unprecedented. By normalizing a far-right rhetoric it has empowered politicians to present far-right policies. Further, by funneling funds into far-right driven policies, like support for coal, or industrial agriculture, or war profiteering, you further lend credence to the strength of those policies in ways that draw attention from local bases and generate more support for those policies.

I couldn't disagree more that a President doesn't have the power to move policy. I'm no fan of the presidential system, at all, and much prefer a parliamentary system. But in a presidential system a president has power, that's the whole point - to have one person/leader who carries the reins of the direction the country is moving in. I'm just thinking for example of Bachelet's last presidency in Chile, she was the prime mover for an educational inclusion law that will have positive consequences for generations to come. She also implemented the largest interconnected system of national parks in the world, as well as gigantic marine reserves. Presidents CAN get shit done IF they genuinely find a way to reach a majority of the populace and rile up public sentiment. That public then channels that sentiment into their elected local leaders. Just look at how much Bernie changed the conversation on Health Care, FORCING every othe candidate to adjust their policies in some way to meet his vision. And that was when he was a candidate...So yeah, president Bernie would have gotten shit done, but the centrist (by default neocon neolib) voter votes out of fear of the big bad wolf (the OTHER team) and gave the 2020 election to Donald Trump. Oh well. It could have been nice...

Bernie couldn't talk moderates into being progressive but Trump talked them into being racist. 

I never came close to saying that the president doesn't have the ability to move policy. I did say that a president doesn't have a magic wand.

>>> You still don't get it: until a viable candidate runs in a 3rd party, we are stuck with what we have. I've been saying this about Bernie since 2016. He isn't a Democrat, he has a following, and he fucked up, on many levels, by running as a Democrat. And all his acolytes blame the DNC for taking away his chance? No, blame him. He had a way better chance running as a third party candidate. <<<

Yep, bernie sold out by running as a democrat

glad he's riden with biden now.

bernie gets it, you lose, you don't quit like the bros do.

you keep pushing.

I have to say, Javs, that it's interesting that you take issue with anyone predicting what Hillary would have done, yet you have predicted the results of the 2020 election.

I find both to be silly, simply because they are just guesses, not even hypotheses.

Here's a great example why bernie bros and the I can't vote for a guy that (add whatever)...

It's time to not hold the country back, again.

Bernie: Joint task force policies will make Biden ‘most progressive president since FDR’

Sen. Sanders on Biden-Sanders unity task force recommendations: “I think the compromise that they came up with, if implemented, will make Biden the most progressive president since FDR.”

https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/bernie-joint-task-force-policies-will...

so why doesn't biden pick bernie for vp? 

Interesting litmus test, ogkb.

>>> so why doesn't biden pick bernie for vp? 

^ lol

here's some more...

Democratic Task Forces Deliver Biden A Blueprint For A Progressive Presidency

A joint effort by former Vice President Joe Biden and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders to unify Democrats around Biden's candidacy has produced a 110-page policy wish list to recommend to the party's presumptive presidential nominee.

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/08/889189235/democratic-task-forces-deliver-...

I really love the whole anger issue over the debate about Hillary's imaginary response to Covid. THAT was classic zoning right there.

right? i feel like that got glossed over

"you are living in a delusional utopia because you wont discuss the statistics from my imaginary hillary scenario that i just made up while writing this post"

thats just as crazy if not crazier than 99% of what bryen and thom post

so why doesn't biden pick bernie for vp?

id guess mainly because of an idealogical opposition that biden is trying his best to downplay, but im assuming will become glaringly clear within the first year of his potential presidencey

and also because rather than chose based solely on merit and qualifications, he has publicly committed to using identity as the first metric by which he chooses a VP

*stacy abrams has entered the chat

>>> but please stop with the delusional Joe is going to do the people's work...it's disingenuous at best... <<<
 

did you read any of the biden-sanders democratic task force blueprint?

110 page policy, might take a minute or 12

lip service. 

and lol thod. of course you'd think that means anything. 

all biden has to do is endorse and fight for m4a. 

he'd have a huge chunk of voters vote for that alone. 

he just can't. he's not allowed. 

lip service from bernie?

he's all-in like chris hayes

you're not down with what they're planning with the biden-sanders blueprint?

whole bunch of progressives are on board...

are they not allowed also? Jfc

This entire discussion is so played. Although many Americans like certain Progressive policies, most are not progressive. Many who claimed to be didn't go out to vote. So, Biden's our guy. Some people will never vote for him, some will vote grudgingly, and others will happily do so.

I have to ask, is there some Progressive/Socialist publication that pushes this whole "corporate Democrat" thing? 

TOD, i have created a scenario in which joe biden turns on bernie, goes all in for wall street and implodes the DNC via infighting, and you are being totally delusional for not acknowledging the facts on the ground about the scenario i just made up on the spot

I have to ask, is there some Progressive/Socialist publication that pushes this whole "corporate Democrat" thing?

the populist left new media youtube crowd - krystal ball, kyle kulinski, young turks, to a lesser extent glenn greenwald, there are many many others

they tend to be left-libertarian - not socialist by a long shot - the general viewpoint is a support for most/all bernie type social programs, dialing back/eliminating US imperialism overseas, maintaining free speech and constitutional freedoms, and a free market capitalist system that features heavier taxes on the rich and increased soical spending.

yeah dL, delusional politics go right over my head.

have you checked out QAnon?

Actually, Brian K our flaws don't start with the two party system. Our entire structure is built of off greed. Politics is no different. It's all about greed. The people who have the most end up getting more and more and bigger and bigger. When you speak of socialist then I'm guessing you are speaking of Trump? He has by far been the most socialist president of all time. Obviously distribution of public money falls into the same category and greed takes over like anything else. I don't have the answers and we are far from any but we are seeing now just how fucked up our entire economical society is and how fragile it is at the root. Eventually all politicians start singing a tune of horseshit to divert attention. That's what politics exists for. In the background the real players are soaking up the funds. 

Sweet lecture, professor, though I took Radical Political Economics decades ago. 

How is the understanding of greed radical? Please explain, or you can go back to trolling.

lol, no i did not read joe's blueprint...

If it's not on time, it's Freeeeee maaaaannnnnn

At a point in history it was "radical" to call out the power structure for what it is, and then call for change. If you think my post was trolling, then oh the fuck well. Grow a pair.

You're still trolling, guy. There's nothing radical about knowledge. My advice to you is get some. You supposed "grown ups" on the zone are about as mature as 10 yr olds. Pretty funny. 

I guess you'd know what trolling is, right? That's all you did here for years.

Again, I didn't make up the term "Radical Political Economics," nor did I define what it means. If you have a problem with it, take it up with academia. Nothing you're rambling about is new. It's simply a rehash of "Radical Political Economics." Can you read?

By the way, you, of all people, telling anyone to get some knowledge? That's just rich.

the fuck  you babbling about bk?

Jumping in, Turts? I'm not why you can't have nice things.

>>> lol, no i did not read joe's blueprint... <<<

I'm not suprised you don't wanna see the positive that bernie is bringing to the biden-sanders blueprint

task force and how we can start to progressively move forward.

some people need to have a boogeyman, smh

never said ya were bk.

IF biden does adopt some of bernie's platform, well that's terrific...i'm sure he wants bernie's voters...

not very optimistic of him championing them and fighting for them....(see clinton/obamma presidencies for example of not much really happening for the avg. working american, not to mention joe's long track record of mediocrity and subservience)......

BK, I have no affiliation with any ideas or ideals that "radical political economics" claim to have. My point is that our consumer based economy and politics are run entirely by greed and destruction of lower economical countries. That's the game we play. It's just a fact. I don't claim to have an alternative and I'm not trying to start any kind of movement. It's my opinion that politicians are just fake icons. You can believe what you like. I may not exactly be fond of you but I don't need to judge you to make myself feel better. My goal is not to persuade and dissuade you in any way. That's just my take. If you don't like it then you don't need to read my posts.

and some people are just stupid. like thod. 

What you don't get, Timpy, is that I wholeheartedly agree with you, especially at the national level of politics. When Congress-people have to spend 75% of their time fundraising, that's pretty telling.

Yes, you don't have to judge me, but you do, and often. It's those dickish comments like, "My advice to you is get some. You supposed "grown ups" on the zone are about as mature as 10 yr olds. Pretty funny." Just another personal attack (and attack on others who may not agree with you). You just don't know how not to, do you?

your awesome thread where you created an imaginary world where hillary is president, made up a random number of lives saved by her totally unexplained, imaginary policies, and then accused others of being delusional for not wanting to discuss the imaginary statistics you made up to go with your imaginary hillary scenario?

>>You can believe what you like. I may not exactly be fond of you but I don't need to judge you

LMAO

You took a moment off from judging zoners at some point? When exactly was that?

centrists like ned and jr and ras say just vote biden now and we'll get to the progressive policy once shit settles down. 

lol. you know none of us believe that shit, right? 

https://sirota.substack.com/p/senate-democrats-machine-spent-15

the corporate dems are satisfied w/ how things are going. 

just removing trump doesn't change this. 

the dems fully embracing their mega greedy capitalistic ways, while abandoning pretty much all forms of socialism, have led to trump and the republicans authoritarian/fascist rise. 

>>you know none of us believe that shit, right? 

Well then, enjoy another 4 years of Trump and know that we believe you are a stubborn and inflexible waste of a vote.

Pretty much all the good threads in the zone are like some weird WWF match. It starts with two dudes, sometimes a dudette, sorta posturing, showing their respective outfits to the crowd, then the match starts, somebody takes the bait, piledriver, another wrestler jumps in the ring and hits one of the two with a chair, and pretty soon it's just a giant pile of zoners all throwing chairs, flying through the air, headlocks on each other...

It's kind of beautiful in its own weird way...

Yes, Trump and his sycophants and his abhorrent policies are Democrat's fault.

>>> just removing trump doesn't change this.  <<<

It's a good first step.

imagine if everybody carried their own weight 

to get the fuckstick-in-chief outta office?

I guess some people are used to having everybody carry their water for them.

usually starts at home at a very young age.

You know what else usually starts at home at a very young age? Unquestioning submission to the paradigm, like, for example, gee, this time voting for the lesser of two evils is REALLY necessary and is going to bring about a good thing and won't ultimately keep on pushing the dichotomous machine that creates extremes like Donald Trump? This time it's for real, guys. Not like the last 20 times, this time is voting for the lesser of two evils is REALLY going to solve the problems. 

I have no love for Biden, but I don't see him as evil. He's a politician and running for POTUS. That makes him kind of fucked up, but no more than ANYONE who wants that shitty job.

I understand why you see him as evil, I just disagree.

Joe Biden is a fuck'n puppet for the people, if the people demand it.

lot's of people believe this is more of the same shit because of this candidate.

just like they believed bernie could've delivered on all those promises.

"The Times They Are a-Changin'"

thod hates bernie lol. 

tool. 

bernie dropped out

always remember that...

lol 

jr -- you're talking about HRC. 

i know you're trolling, but come on man. let it go. 

rrg -- bernie dropped our twice, remember? 

it's people like you championing neoliberal policy that gave us trump. 

always remember that. 

anyway, zero comments on the dem leadership trying to crush progressive candidates this primary season. crickets. 

why? centrists here have nothing to say -- vote now for neoliberals and then in a few years those neoliberals will pass legislation that most people want? like m4a, gnd, criminal justice reform -- fuck no. 

suckers. 

>>it's people like you championing neoliberal policy that gave us trump.

Can you please provide some data to definitively prove this?

He'll just be back with gibberish and anger, Brian. 

He's too predictable now.

^^really man? 

wild. 

you both don't think decades of coprpodate dems stepping on our throats, didn't hand the fake populist an election? 

you're not paying attention then. 

I'm asking for some data, not opinion. There has to be something out there to back up what you're saying.

The data I see is that although a slim majority of the population loves the Progressive policies, they do not want to be called Progressive, nor will they vote Progressive. Beats me as to why, other than the fact that we are a nation of dumbasses.

Look man, you're making a very bold statement as fact, and there may be some truth to it. All aim asking for is some data to back it up.

A minority of the population think Black Lives Matter.

>>>The data I see is that although a slim majority of the population loves the Progressive policies,<<<

Are you referring to the very small portion of the population that actually cashed their stimulus checks vs rejecting progressivism and sending them back?

I think far more Americans are scared of being "labeled" by their neighbors with some boogeyman word that they hear Fox News throwing around rather than taking interest in actually developing an understanding of what progressive politics are and how they already likely benefit from them daily in one or more ways.

>> coprpodate dems 

There's the gibberish. lol

No, I think the corpses of progressives have been fools.

If you disagree - you're probably on drugs.

Research. It's soooooo hard....

The Dark Sides of Social Policy: From Neoliberalism to Resurgent Right‐wing Populism

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/dech.12577

"First, many recent social policy innovations have been discredited by their association with neoliberalism. The rising political Right has been much more successful than the Left at exploiting this discontent, despite simultaneously deepening many aspects of neoliberalism once in power."

The ‘Populist’ Right Challenge to Neoliberalism: Social Policy between a Rock and a Hard Place

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/dech.12578

"The author locates the cause for the right populist surge in the legacies of neoliberalism, paying particular attention to the way neoliberal reforms have affected popular attitudes towards politics. The commodification of politics and social services has stoked mass cynicism towards reigning neoliberal elites, creating receptive audiences for populist slogans to ‘drain the swamp’ at the heart of governments. "

Is that enough evidence or do I need to cut and paste a few more abstracts?

Just for fun:

Neoliberalism is over – welcome to the era of neo-illiberalism

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/neoliberalism-is-over-welcom...

"As the coronavirus and its political combatants hold the world hostage, it is pertinent to scrutinize the (geo) political and economic context within which the pandemic has emerged. Many analyses view neoliberalism as the culprit, having given rise to a dismantling and marketization of public services such as healthcare for which we are now paying the price. "

This is interesting, too:

The Collapse of Neoliberalism

https://newrepublic.com/article/155970/collapse-neoliberalism

The second problem is that neoliberals on right and left sometimes use identity as a shield to protect neoliberal policies. As one commentator has argued, “Without the bedrock of class politics, identity politics has become an agenda of inclusionary neoliberalism in which individuals can be accommodated but addressing structural inequalities cannot.” What this means is that some neoliberals hold high the banner of inclusiveness on gender and race and thus claim to be progressive reformers, but they then turn a blind eye to systemic changes in politics and the economy. 

If you honestly can't see how voting in lesser-of-evil, moderate, neoliberal candidates has created the conditions for the rise of the far-right around the world, then I suggest doing more research.

No need to get snarky, Javs. When someone makes a very bold claim as fact, the onus is on them to provide data. That's what I asked for.

Javs posting opinion pieces as "facts".

They're called academic articles, slightly different from opinion articles.

And didn't mean to get snarky, BK, but to deny the connection between the isolation that people feel as a result of neoliberalism and the direct push towards populism of all brands, is to just deny a social phenomenon that's being openly discussed around the world. There's no secret about it, really. 

But I do LOVE how JR is slowly turning Hillary into this wonderful imaginary political Chuck Norris. I guess some people just need to cling to their fantasies...

Did I deny a connection? I said, "...there may be some truth to it...want to see data..."

But you knew the premise to be true to begin with. I'm guessing it's not some shocking noveau idea to you, right?

And just to be clear I wrote above that neoliberal policies are directly tied to the populism of all brands, in which I include good ol' Bernie.

Hey, I've always said I thought Hillary was a highly qualified individual and duh, what kind of shit brained question is that? I'm pretty sure my 12 year old son would handle this crisis better than Trump. However, I also have no doubt that Hillary would have found a way to turn the crisis into a neoliberal money maker, as neoliberal money making presidents around the world are currently doing. How do you do that? Funnel insane amounts of money into privatized health care and health insurance systems, first off, vs dumping tons of money into a social health care network. How else do you do it? By offering to help out the middle and lower class who are finding themselves in economic straights low income loans, which, let's face it, just means more money for the banks. So yeah, Hillary would have saved a lot of lives and in the process of doing so would have further broadened the gap between the rich and the poor in the nation, thus stoking the fires for continued populist fervor. But oh, right, that's why she didn't win in the first place.

Do you agree that neoliberal policies and voting for the lesser of two evils is the tried and true path towards the populism we find ourselves in today? I've already presented some pretty strong academic articles to support the idea but I haven't seen anybody present any evidence to the contrary. 

javs

lost in space?  "academic articles" equals  academic writers expressing opinions....

chill

Stop rocking the fucking boat!

y'all could've had a taco truck on every corner,

instead we got morgue trailers.

but your neoliberal heros keep trying to kill the grass roots movement. 

which one is it man? 

you equate a grassroots movement to 142,064 US citizens dead, the body count keeps going up 1k a day...

and that's what you got?

that's only about five years of deaths in america as a result of no medical coverage. 

ive never seen you upset about those numbers here. do you care? 

its fucked 150k americans are dead due to covid -- it's even more fucked the dems have doubled down on not supporting m4a even during a pandemic. nobody here is talking about that -- like it's normal. that's insane. 

it's like normalizing mass shootings in this country. 

you're a fuckin' idiot.

Academic articles is not the same as academics writing their opinions. It's academics presenting hypotheses based on evidence from research (in field and based on other articles). If you don't know the difference, take a walk through a humanities department some time and ask around about how to write an academic article. Ask about things like peer review and see what they tell you. Doesn't mean it's gospel, just means it's based on evidence. Doesn't mean it's true. Just means there appears to be a pattern. That's how science works.

If you want to hide your head in the sand about the direct link between neoliberalism and modern day populism, go ahead, but in terms of people who actually put thought into sociology and political science, there really is no questioning that idea. 

But again, I welcome anybody to present an article that proves me wrong. Or an academic article that argues a different hypothesis. Go ahead. I see a whole lot of primate poop tossing round these parts, but when you ask people to provide one tiny shred of intelligent argumentation....radio silence. 

Here's another article about how neoliberalism led to the rise of right-wing populism. This one is NOT an academic article, it's a think piece. I understand that it probably won't make most of you think, anyways, but give it a read - go ahead, see what happens. 

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/09/in-the-ruins-of-neoliberalism-wendy-b...

thod only cares about things when the corporate media tells him to. 

trash. 

>>nobody here is talking about that -- like it's normal. that's insane

Dude - secret, silent federal police in camo are picking up protesters in unmarked vehicles and taking them away. THAT is insane.

So, just to put a final ribbon on this conversation:

1) No one has denied that there is a direct correlation between the implementation of neoliberal policies and the rise of far-right populism. No one has presented any argument or evidence to the contrary, or any massively accepted origins for the current international wave of far-right populism.

2) The candidates that have been chosen as "lesser-of-two-evils" candidates, such as and especially including Joe Biden, are then essentially responsible for implementing the policies that have pushed the pendulum predictably further right each time. First, it was (since I can remember), "Anyone's better than George HW Bush". No one could believe how evil he was, the whole bullshit Gulf War 1 and all and yet the entire country was parading around with yellow support the troops ribbons. Then you had Billy for 8, who happily trod along the neolib path, all the while moving production out of the country, isolating the working class more and more from the upper class, economically and culturally until Blam! W. No one thought that dumb steaming pile of shit could get elected and there you have it. And that sumbitch was evil. Him and his posse were truly evil. So after that hard right turn to pure international evil, Barry comes out with his hope and change message, but really it's just more neoliberalism. Same tendency, same economic policies, some corporate rule. 8 years of that and now Trump. And yet so many are totally convinced that by ushering in another neolib lesser of two evils, that somehow this time it's going to solve the problem. 

So long ramble short, you vote for Biden you're doing one of two things, IMO. 1) You're pushing the country into Trump's hands now, or 2) You're pushing the country into even more extreme forms of far-right populism later. 

Before you award yourself a ribbon - here's another thought, Jav.

Politics are like a pendulum. Swing too hard one way - and the reaction is a a swing in the other direction. So if the swinging pendulum blames neo-liberalism for current populism - then a  swing past liberal to progressive would imply an even bigger swing back to fascism or worse at some point in the future due to voting for progressives. 

So how do the people stop swinging the pendulum back and forth - vote for centrists? Oh my.

 

Someone cue up Earth, Wind and Fire's "That's the Way of the World." please.

The difference between a swing towards a progressive government versus a neoliberal policy is that the progressive policies don't create the social and economic isolation that the neolib ones do. What the evidence is showing is that the constant leaning on neoliberalism is what is causing the massive swinging of the pendulum. You have the Dems who are hard core neolibs and the Repubs who are even harder core neolibs so essentially there is no choice. If you want to stop the pendulum and start addressing the needs of the majority, you need progressive policies.

And I put the ribbon on the thread, not myself, not as an award but like to wrap it up. 

A swing toward progressives means the right can yell SOCIALISM!!! You think they are going to be happy as "socialists" and therefore put their policies away calmly?

I vote progressive most of the time and it has not done much good. I've been voting for Bernie for over 30 years - and have voted for many other progressives anytime I was given the chance.
 

The ribbon award was for wrapping up the the thread so neat and tidy.

Because the world is many things - but neat and tidy is not one of them.

It's like the repubs who now defend Obama Care. Once people gain access to certain rights, they don't generally go back to complaining against them. I think that when progressive policies are put into place people become accustomed to the benefits they accrue and then quickly move on to defending those rights. That's more or less what the evidence has shown has happened in Scandinavian countries, who are the only ones who have really applied this model to an extreme.

Neoliberal policies, on the other hand, create the kind of social and economic isolation that leads to far-right populism. 6, you keep on going on about these what ifs, but the evidence shows pretty clearly that your moderate neolib candidates ARE responsible for the rise of far-right populism. So far you have also not denied that. So you keep on dancing around that one key idea and don't seem to address the elephant in the room. The evidence shows that voting for the Joe Bidens of the past has created Donald Trump and yet here so many are, ready and excited to do the exact same thing again and learn nothing from history.

Oh well...

So, given the actual choice this fall - where, realistically NOT hypothetically -  the winner will either be Biden or Trump - are you suggesting I vote for Trump or just not vote at all and let Trump win by default?

Or - are you saying that if I write in Bernie’s name - at least I can feel “good about myself” because I’m not supporting neo-liberalism while Trump turns America into even more of a dictatorship during his second term?

And what happens if Biden picks progressive Elizabeth Warren as his VP - then what???

Just trying to be real here, We can talk theories and evidence all day long - but give me some practical advice.

Who should I vote for this fall? Seriously.

If I don't vote for Biden - then who? 

that's a really good question 6

if I recall...

the bros we're crying that Warren was stealing all of bernie's progressive ideas.

went from I'd vote for her, to no way she's one of them.

that was only after they saw the writing on the wall that bernie didn't stand a chance.

>>that's a really good question 6

It's more than "really good" - it is THE question.
 

THE question that no progressive here (or anywhere) seems to want to answer.

When I now read "neoliberal," I check out. It has become an overused perjorative, which perpetuates the "us vs them" mentality. As it's commonly used, it's not descriptive or helpful.

This is yet another case of the far left and the far right being similar. They thrive on moral superiority and divisiveness, neither of which will move this country forward.

And Javs, there's a fatal flaw to your entire argument. You 100% attribute the rise of far right populism to "neoliberalism." Although it may play a part, there's no way in hell that it is the only cause. It's not a clear-cut cause and effect. There's a lot of inherent racism and xenophobia  in this world, and the far right populists play on that to build support. That has nothing to do with neoliberalism.

People are fucking stupid and under-educated. They are looking fore scapegoats, and it seems that the far right populists have learned how to deliver those to the people. It's the immigrants, it's the Jews, it's the Democrats, blah, blah, blah. And people buy it.

Honestly, do you really think that the majority of voters in the US have a friggin clue about the nuances of "free market Democrats," and how their policies have done this or that? Most Americans can't name the 3 branches of government, let alone their roles. To attribute the rise of far right populism solely to neoliberalism is just a academic jibberish. There are hundreds of reasons why we have Trump, Duarte, the dudes in Hungary and Brazil, etc.

>>Honestly, do you really think that the majority of voters in the US have a friggin clue about the nuances of "free market Democrats," and how their policies have done this or that? 

Perhaps Javs believes that only intellectuals vote, Brian.

>>>>>you vote for Biden you're doing one of two things, IMO. 1) You're pushing the country into Trump's hands now, or 2) You're pushing the country into even more extreme forms of far-right populism later. 

Vote for Trump, and  you're pushing the country into Trump's hands now.

Vote for someone else, and you're pushing the country into Trump's hands now.

Vote for nobody, and you're pushing the country into Trump's hands now.

??????????????????????????

Yes, Biden is a neo-liberal, but Trump is an insane, evil, ignorant narcissist. Any sane person will know which way to vote.

The irony of the progressive far left is that it's boujee.

Well, you have to be at least a little boujee to afford those pizza prices. (wininkng emoji)

I truly believe that any revolution has to be led by the educated middle class. This one, though, is all weird. Instead of trying to build a coalition, it polarizes itself. Doesn't this "revolution" need the support of all/most liberals? How can it do that when it puts down people who have somewhat similar beliefs? It's also patronizing to those it purports to help the most, telling them what is right and wrong, but not getting the buy-in.

The current progressive "revolution" is failing, and it's not because of neoliberals. It's because of its own hubris. It's really snobby.

>>The current progressive "revolution" is failing, and it's not because of neoliberals. It's because of its own hubris. It's really snobby.

B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was his name-O

The other irony is that - as Vermonters - you and I have voted for Bernie MANY more times than just about anybody else in this thread has voted for ANY progressive in ANY election..

Basically, all I hear is people trying to justify/skirt their responsibility in bringing about the modern day political climate and/or perpetuating it.

First off BK, one tiny google search for the correlation between neoliberal policies and modern day populism yields hundreds of results and yet I can't find jack shit about other causes. Human beings are essentially racist, xenophobic, etc. These types of underlying differences have always been a part of humanity but those differences come to the forefront based on the social and economic circumstances around people. So again, you have no argument except to say that my argument is wrong because you think it might be. Hundreds of scholars around the world are making the connection I'm laying down for you all and no body here has presented one tiny shred of counter-evidence or something to explain the role of the factors you describe. Why do you think it's so easy to find evidence to support what I'm saying?

Second, the argument that people have to be intellectuals to understand how policies are affecting them is beyond retarded, sorry. Talk to the lower-middle class worker who can't affort health care. They'll tell you all about neoliberal policies. Talk to the worker in Flint who can't drink water from her tap. She'll let you know all about it. Talk to the people of Anaconda, Montana and the highest rates of cancer in the country during the 70s. They'll tell you all about neoliberal policies. People don't need to understand legalese to know when they're getting screwed.

Third, you want to shut down when people say neoliberal, I say you're just being intellectually lazy. You've offered nothing of substance to counter what I'm arguing. Neoliberal economics has dominated the global market for about 50 years or more, starting with Milton Friedman on down. It's not a pejorative term, it's an economic school of thought. It is only one school of thought and it has basically run roughshod over the planet. The idea that absolutely everything is a commodity, including your health, education, etc. comes from there. So when I talk about neoliberals, I'm talking about a very specific set of economic policies. If you want to switch off, well, that's your choice.

And to have any American, sitting in their comfortable home with A/C and heating, and one or two cars in the driveway, space for a garden, a closet full of quality clothing, to be calling anyone Bougie, well, that's rich (pun intended). Just so you know, outside of the US there really isn't any such thing as designer pizza. The reason you all even know what it is is because you are the aristocrats of the world.

So Javs - that's all well and good and I'm sure you feel good posting all that - but you still don't answer my question - WHO should I vote for this fall instead of Biden then?

Somehow I am not surprised you continue to skip over that. And until you do answer - nothing else really matters but the finger pointing, I guess.

The best thing that can happen to the US at this point in time is another Donald presidency. Sadly, you all haven't been pushed to the extreme enough to really understand what's important in a government. Most of you have zero awareness of how your decisions affect the rest of the world either, so you know, maybe it's not so bad that now you have unmarked cops dragging people off the streets of your cities. It's what the rest of the world has already experienced a lot in the past. Might not hurt you to know a little bit about this kind of reality...

As to what to do in this election: you buy the ticket, you take the ride. You choose to participate in a corrupt ass rigged system that only allows for one of two neoliberal oligarchs to become your master, then hey, you deal with the results. 

So, still no real actual answer. 

I don't give a fuck who you vote for, 6. You want to play dirty games, make your own decisions. Your buying into a corrupt system either way, and that's where your moderate lesser of two evils voting has brought the situation. 

You want to perpetuate? Go ahead, feel free.

You want me to make up your mind for you? Jesus, man, that's now how I roll.

>> maybe it's not so bad that now you have unmarked cops dragging people off the streets of your cities.

Perhaps I should vote for Trump then if it's "not so bad"?

Like sitting back and enjoying getting raped because there's nothing I can do?

Homeowners will hit the streets carrying signs instead of weapons and love will win. 

>>Your buying into a corrupt system either way, and that's where your moderate lesser of two evils voting has brought the situation. 

So the answer is to not vote at all?

>>You want to perpetuate? Go ahead, feel free.

I see. Sticking my head in the sand is the more "honorable" choice?

>>You want me to make up your mind for you?

No, I am asking you for advice - I don;t HAVE TO accept your answer - just wondering what you would do given the realistic choice I will be given in November.

Besides - no matter WHO I vote for - Vermont will go for Biden in the electoral college - so my voye is really just formailty anyway. I am a VICTIM of the system, I tell you. A victim with no real "choice".

 

"Like sitting back and enjoying getting raped because there's nothing I can do?"

The moderate voters already did enough, 6. That's what created this situation. 

In 2016 45% of eligible voters did not vote in the US. That is your only true majority. You want to know who really won the 2016 election? The abstention vote. The I don't buy into this system vote. 

At this stage there is no honorable choice. Fear has won and it has given you Biden and Trump.

Either vote is dishonorable.

I have not voted in elections before. You know what that got me?  

Are you familiar with the term bupkis?

^^exactly. fear won. it's why we can't have somebody like bernie -- centrist fear mongering combined w/ corporate media trashing him 24/7 plus republicans helping that fear -- incredible. 

neoliberal makes bk check out? strange. maybe you're the "fake progressive" as you have called me here. 

<<<>>>The other irony is that - as Vermonters - you and I have voted for Bernie MANY more times than just about anybody else in this thread has voted for ANY progressive in ANY election..

this is hilarious. pure gibberish as you say, 6. hahahaha. you sound like bryen now. lol. 

still the centrists here have never answered:

why have the dems doubled down on not supporting m4a during a pandemic? 

why can't we have m4a? 

why have the senate dems spent millions trying to destroy the progressive movement when a majority of the base supports m4a, gnd, and many other popular progressive ideas? why? 

and centrists say vote the neoliberal now, then we can talk progressive in a couple years  -- wtf? biden hates progressives, progressive policy -- his record shows that. 

now they say they care about african americans -- african americans in this country overwhelmingly support progressive policy. why won't they acknowledge the policy the people want? 

trump is horrible. 

biden said nothing will fundamentally change. 

why should i vote for a neoliberal? 

>>this is hilarious. pure gibberish as you say, 6. hahahaha. you sound like bryen now. lol. 

The truth is gibberish. Thank you. I also hear that the truth hurts.

How many progressive candidates have you actually voted for?

Can you name names?

I sure hope you are voting for Brenda Seigel for Lt Gov this fall, dude. 

 

>>why should i vote for a neoliberal? 

You shouldn't. You should just stay lovably smug and wonderfully arrogant.

nice, 6. glad you decided to come back and play here. 

we all know you have had many meltdowns and have had to leave, publicly, started theads about it, written to admin countless times. 

it's nice having your bitch ass around again. 

seriously. 

captain vermont. lol. 

>>> we all know you have had many meltdowns and have had to leave, publicly, started theads about it, written to admin countless times. <<<

it truly is amazing watching you fully melt about the derpology that has been ingrained by russian propaganda in that pea sized brain of yours.

my god dude.
 

>>glad you decided to come back and play here. 

I don't play here. Holy shit it's too FUCKING SERIOUS here, Captain SweetTART

 

>>written to admin countless times. 

countless? lol

thod what are you even saying? 

shut the fuck up. lol. 

there it is, 6. nice. 

lol

there "it" is.

>>> we all know you have had many meltdowns and have had to leave, publicly, started theads about it, written to admin countless times. <<<

>>> thod what are you even saying? 

Is lava sharing personal zoner info with you?

because you talkin' like you know some innie shit

jus sayin'

According to a past post from pyramid - lava has indeed shared stuff about me with pyramid. 

And while that sucks - it's totally not surprising. 
I suppose it's nice to have immunity from admin. I guess It makes you feel a bit more important, you know?

Although it also makes you look weak and shallow too.

this is great. 

6 is the worst zoner of all time, w/ thod right behind him. 

of course a bitch like 6 emails admin. this is known. 

6 also shared the name of my personal business here. 

we call that weak and shallow. 

A bitch like you doesn't have to email admin - you just have to cry to your brother. 

haha is that what you think? i never talk zone w/ lava.

but maybe we should ask how many times you've emailed? 

you silly little bitch. 

For you, Javs. Sorry if it doesn't fit your myopic and the incorrect theory:

https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://ww...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352154619301299

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1185906.pdf

https://migration.unu.edu/publications/reports/the-rise-of-nationalist-p...

https://mepc.org/commentary/xenophobia-and-anti-immigrant-sentiment-west

For me, ogkb, "progressivism" isn't about isolating, stigmatizing, or using terms as perjoratives to create divides. It's about working in my personal and professional life to bring the lasting changes that will have positive effects on individuals, families and our community. It's about working to give vulnerable populations the tools they need to empower themselves. It's about voting for these ideals in local and state elections. It's about trying to move the needle on the national level, without being divisive.

If I'm not your kind of progressive, that's okay. I'm not the enemy.

>>> haha is that what you think? i never talk zone w/ lava. <<<

I don't know bro...

think we're gonna have to go upstairs for that call.

the original call on the field is that you've gotten personal zoner info from lava.

let see if that stands, shall we?

>>i never talk zone w/ lava.

You posted to me that he shared my emails with you - did he do that by telekinesis or did you talk to him?

Whatever floats your boat, dude. If you need me to be the scapegoat - so be it.

and once 6 shared my business name, thod looked it up and began making fun of the way i look. 

i'd say super weak and shallow. 

i never posted that, 6. now you're lying. 

i said you emailed admin and i knew -- i got you son. you got played  

you outted yourself as the bitch that you are. 

...

Dude - I am not lying and you and I both know it - but whatever. You're no fun anymore. 

And Javs...

The irony of intellectual elitism is one American college educated, middle class working stiff lecturing another person, who is exactly the same, on why they are the problem.

The hubris of intellectual elitism is when one of those dudes is Chilean, yet lectures the other on the working poor in America, when that other dude works with and for the American working poor and vulnerable populations. Like you know more?

You've become a bit of a conundrum, Javs.

what i said was i know you've emailed admin. and you admitted you did. 

i had no idea you did. 

see how that works. 

look at you squirm, you mentioned your sicilian style pizza...

simple google search in the area you transplanted to

read reviews 

boom

p-nutz

whose the bitch now?!

I emailed admin because I was REPLYING to your brother's email he sent to me.

And you posted that he shared that email with you.

Funny how that works.

still waiting on that call from upstairs...

Don't hold your breath, TOD

I have no idea what the name of Your shop is, derpheat.

And Six never mentioned it.

But the chin strap comments sure got you pretty melty.

lol

See how that works?

What are the odds that he is talking with his brother right now?

i'm not talking to lava haha. what would i say? please help? please stop 6! i never said anything about you sharing my personal info. 

never said anything about thod creeping on my shit, making comments about things only from my business page. that's fucked up, thod.

you guys are hilarious. 

only zone emails i've ever seen were from judit to me about posting here. just facts. 

rrg -- you are very stupid, i don't hold that against. you just have a disgusting presence here, really no other way to say it. does the blue rose task force save the jerry's kids? you know, when you're not blackout drunk dry-humping a dog? 

Well well well, this IS a big day....

Here is Your worst Zoner of all time award Six:

Now You can crush Covid, and  some super kind buds !!!

Congrats !!!

                                                                       dank

vermonts weird.

why's everyone mad at javs for pointing out the obvious?

bk and 6 need to take a lap.

tod needs to go iron his underwear.

Turtle needs an award for being such a team player!

lol

Once again, Turtle has nothing to add. But damn, he loves to come at me.

Im going to say it, Turtle: you're too much of a wuss to call others out, because you're afraid d that you'll become a target. You wouldn't want that, would you? So instead, you do the stupid little pile on thing, like a good little follower. How about if you stand down?

Javs isn't pointing out the obvious. He's selectively picking things that meet his radical agenda. What's obvious is that there are many reasons for the rise in global, right-wing extremism. You can disagree all you want, but you'll be as wrong as Javs.

team player = sycophant 

the same could be said of you two, dynamic duo....

um, who am i supposed to be calling out and for what?

i'm not the guy(s) all worked up.

if "coming at you", means pointing out your obtuse-ness, ok i'm guilty.

did i "call you out"?

let me know how it's done.

and if agreeing with the majority of jav's articulate and well reasoned pov makes me sycophant, so be it

Dynamic duo

Hey Brian - rev up the Batmobile. The Joker is back in town!

Well, seeing as how I hadn't posted in an hour, and my posts were directed solely at one person, I'd say that you jumped in late and for no reason. I do t think that you even read my posts. You just like to say shit about me.

It's ignorant to attribute the rise of global right wing populism solely as a response to neoliberalism. Call me obtuse all you want. It doesn't change the facts.

Is a tenet of modern progressivism to overlook anything that goes against your dim-witted and erroneous theory? Yeah, it's all a response to neoliberalism. Are you brainwashed?

BK, the first article you posted is:

A) A senior thesis, written by a university senior for their degree - hardly lacking the academic rigorousness required of true evidence;

B) Was presented for review in December of 2016, meaning it is surely based on research from 2015, and therefore is before Trump's election and before the most recent wave of far-right populism;

C) Says right in the abstract:

"The growing anti-immigrant sentiment, THE DISCONTENT WITH "ESTABLISHMENT" POLITICS, and fear-mongering tactics has given rise to far-right political parties such as the National Front and the Alternative for Germany."

Just so you know, establishment politics in the EU over the last 30 years is pure neoliberalism with it's socialist European flair.

Is it worth it to go one by one through the rest of your sources? Or will I be equally disappointed in your research skills?

I do love that I now have a twisted radical agenda. You always know you've gotten under someone's skin when they start throwing words like those.

And for the record, Javs said that he couldn't find any proof, via Google, that xenophobia and racism are causes of the rise of right wing populism. I did a quick search and posted links to 5 peer reviewed and extremely well written articles that say differently.

But hey, they don't meet your  agenda, so call me obtuse.

I do think it's great that the democratic left now takes issue with what is discussed in academia when it doesn't suit their perspective. Up until not too long ago the dems still held that arrogant little gem, "we listen to science". Oops. Not when it doesn't meet the paradigm, I guess. If you ask any serious political scientist, sociologist or other such academic who dedicates their life's work to studying this phenomenon, they will back up what I've said.

you mad bro?

Uh, BK, please be so kind as to read my post just above your 1:30 post. You've proven nothing except that you're bad at research.

Your second article is moderately ok.

Third article:

"Drawing from these findings, this paper argues that culturally focused discourses among teachers and politicians may conceal problems beyond culture, such as STRUCTURAL INEQUALITY and the legacy of colonialism."

just finishing my mornin' cup 'o joe ad zoning...

"i hadn't posted for an hr."...lol! ok....i'm 3 hrs behind you.

C'mon, Turtle, hurry up. We're all on BK's schedule now...

Javs, you posted peer reviewed opinion pieces and a link to a Socialist website. I'm not swinging dicks with you about voracity of research sources. There are hundreds of articles when you search for "xenophobia and right wing populism."

You really are an elitist.

Two of the articles don't even discuss the far-right but rather discuss the rise of anti-immigrant sentiment. They're exploring a different phenomenon all together.

i'm not allowed to agree with you javs because i would be a sycophant. (big word!)

You, BK, are posting about the relationship between those two, and nothing you posted shows a causal relationship.

I posted articles about what the root causes are that are from peer-reviewed journals and written in the last year and that specifically explore the cause of the rise of far-right nationalism.

It's not elitism, it's called sticking to the topic. 

But now I'm an elitist, twisted radical.

You know, BK, I used to think you weren't one of the ones who needed to resort to name-calling and bullying tactics to make your point, but I'm starting to see that your usual antagonists may have known you better than I on that mark...

Okay, it's all about your neoliberalism. That's the only reason for the rise of right wing populism on at least 4 continents.

Silly me for thinking that in 180+ nations and 7 billion people in the world, it all boils down to one thing and one thing only.

Ooooh, snarky sarcasm. That makes for a better argument for sure.

Javs, you take plenty of dirty little shots, hidden in your lengthy posts. Lol at you claiming some higher ground.

i'm going out to try and finish my cigar box guitar.

see you dorks later.

This post says it all: if you don't agree with me, then you are ignorant and get what you deserve.

The best thing that can happen to the US at this point in time is another Donald presidency. Sadly, you all haven't been pushed to the extreme enough to really understand what's important in a government. Most of you have zero awareness of how your decisions affect the rest of the world either, so you know, maybe it's not so bad that now you have unmarked cops dragging people off the streets of your cities.

The truth hurts, BK. The US has inflicted a lot of pain and hardship around the world. Sorry to get too Malcolm X on you and tell you about your chickens coming home to roost. I know it's hard to hear. 

BTW, with regards to your arguments about anti-immigrant sentiment, it occurred to me that these massive movements of immigrants around the world are mostly directly related to neoliberal policies: economic, military, agricultural, etc. So, it just comes right back around anyways.

damn javs, you hope for american democracy to fail...

that's not cool bro

especially while in Chile, telling us we deserve it.

actually, that's some fucked up shit and you can eata big fat dick!

Some of youze really need to cancel some of your pejoratives. 

>>i'm not allowed to agree with you javs because i would be a sycophant. (big word!)

Turts - you have a long history of sycophantic zoning that has nothing to do with Javs
 

>>i'm 3 hrs behind you.

actually much further behind, I bet


Javs - you live in Chile, right? I worked with a bunch of J1 young adults last winter from Chile, Peru, Agrentina and other SA countries. They were working up here in the US because they made more in a week than the average monthly wage in their home countries. That was an eye opener for me. They told me stories of the government down there and Chile's sounded by far the worst. Great youngsters that I think about (and worry about every day based on what they told me life is often like there). Many of them were so optimistic despite their hardships and were much less jaded than most American youngsters. As a side bonus they helped me with my spanish (more fun to talk to them in their own language) and I helped them with their English. The Peruvian kids were the biggest partiers - expecially those from Lima, Those kids could dance ALL NIGHT LONG and then some.

This is what the Chilean young people talked to me about. Inequality and an oppressive government

"According to Jose Miguel Ahumada, a political economist and associate professor at the University of Chile, the country is "one of the most unequal countries in Latin America".[ As described by The Washington Post, while the last three decades of neoliberal policies made Chile "one of South America’s wealthiest countries, with inflation under control and easy access to credit", they also "created stark economic disparities and strapped many Chileans into debt".

This might be behind your exuberant bent against neoliberalism?
Makes sense now.

Sure hope things calm the fuck down everywhere soon.  I faith in the youth of your country and mine.

>>The truth hurts, BK. The US has inflicted a lot of pain and hardship around the world. Sorry to get too Malcolm X on you and tell you about your chickens coming home to roost. I know it's hard to hear. 
 

Once again, intellectual elitism. You are just so woke, aren't you? It must be hard to teach middle school by day and then school us stupid Americans by night.

Honestly, Javs, get the fuck over yourself and your, "unless you're a Socialist, then you deserve Trump," bullshit. 

Javs - thinking back - perhaps it wasn't an "oppressive" government in Chile so much as they were unhappy with the way the government reacted to protests in the last couple years.