Kamala Harris gets the tap to be VP

I am disappointed but she was my #2 pick.  Go Biden/Harris!

I Will Vote For Them.

rice and warren Will Help Her ! It IS A Big and Important Job - VP of the United States.

Harris was the one Democrat running for president who I actually got excited about. She's more than capable and brings a whole lot of spirit to the game.

Trump Clearly Rattled ~ 8-11-2020 from Me

Today !!

_______!

Biden/Harris might actually be the more conservative option. I wonder if he will drop or raise in the polls. Good luck with federal legalization now you fuckin stoners. My guess is large funding for the police is coming.

Definitely charismatic. She's got more than a few people excited. Probably will energize the race. I thought it might be Rice for the foreign policy experience, but I don't think Biden hurt himself.

I like that we have two folks on the ticket that actually seem to give a damn about people and can exhibit empathy. Hope it's sincere. Ooops, did I just say sincere, talking about a politician?    

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2018/senate/ideology

710.26Sen. Tammy Baldwin [D-WI]

#720.25Sen. Thomas Carper [D-DE]

#730.24Sen. Timothy “Tim” Kaine [D-VA]

#740.24Sen. Brian Schatz [D-HI]

#750.23Sen. Benjamin Cardin [D-MD]

#760.23Sen. Robert “Bob” Menendez [D-NJ]

#770.22Sen. Patrick Leahy [D-VT]

#780.21Sen. Catherine Cortez Masto [D-NV]

#790.19Sen. Margaret “Maggie” Hassan [D-NH]

#800.19Sen. Tammy Duckworth [D-IL]

#810.19Sen. Christopher Murphy [D-CT]

#820.18Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse [D-RI]

#830.17Sen. Cory Booker [D-NJ]

#840.17Sen. Ron Wyden [D-OR]

#850.16Sen. Dianne Feinstein [D-CA]

#860.16Sen. Tina Smith [D-MN]

#870.15Sen. Elizabeth Warren [D-MA]

#880.15Sen. Chris Van Hollen [D-MD]

#890.14Sen. Richard Durbin [D-IL]

#900.13Sen. Mazie Hirono [D-HI]

#910.13Sen. Patty Murray [D-WA]

#920.12Sen. John “Jack” Reed [D-RI]

#930.12Sen. Sherrod Brown [D-OH]

#940.10Sen. Richard Blumenthal [D-CT]

#950.09Sen. Edward “Ed” Markey [D-MA]

#960.05Sen. Kamala Harris [D-CA]

#970.03Sen. Jeff Merkley [D-OR]

#980.01Sen. Bernard “Bernie” Sanders [I-VT]

#990.00Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]

Who does Gavin name to replace her in the Senate? Katie Porter? 

Forcing Kamala Harris (Beto to) down our throats in the primary but voters said pass. Forcing Kamala 2.0 

Biden loses close sham election. We are a authoritarian state already. 

After this election a new third party for progressives. 

.

So should we put you down as "undecided" Oaksterdan?

<<I thought it might be Rice for the foreign policy experience, but I don't think Biden hurt himself.

My heart hurts for Susan but probably for the best.  Hopefully she get's named Sec. of State. 

Hillary Clinton had a 20+ year campaign against her. We saw it in 2016. The GOP is convinced she is the literal devil, and their attacks have been so steady and comprehensive that even I believed some of them. It’s not fair,  but she’s just largely reviled. Biden has thankfully no such massive campaign against him and none of the other VP options have such strong ties. Susan Rice would have introduced the HRC boogeyman into the mix.

the meme people are busy.

> the meme people are busy.

And the fundraisers too. My inbox is blowing up.

Kamala is a solid pick and leaves Rice free for a cabinet or senior staff job. Harris will open a can of Oakland whoop-ass debating Pence and we'll be a solid campaigner. She won't take crap from Trump. Congrats to Biden/Harris. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX8waP01u2A

Here's a meme for you Turtle.  I guess this is what slick calls charismatic.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/kamala-harris-launched-polit...

Kamala is shady as fuck.  Any Californian should know this.  

Thank you Oregon Senator, Jeff Merkley. More recent list of progressives in Congress:

Bernie scored worse than Kamala and Warren and Booker......shameful!!

She's def got the black vote too.  Hahaha.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-24/kamala-harris-californ...

and to Judit's progeressive score post...

I proud to be non-Partisan.   I am not fooled by the divide and conquer sadism so fruitfully provided.  
 

Fake.  Phony.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justic...

Ha ha knew the little misogynist meme boy would bite.

and as a Californian, no big kamala fan but at least she's not stupid. 

Based on legislation introduced, and verified by two independent ranking systems, Harris is the 4th most progressive Senator. She surpasses both Sanders and Warren.

In spite of this, the haters are concerned with a political job she got 20 years ago, and that she did her job as a DA.

Haters gonna hate...

i actually just goosebumps daydreaming at the dog park about the pence vs. harris debates. all gloves off and no fucks to give. let's fucking go already! 

on another note, makes my heart warm projecting out and seeing a guy like pence ostracized, humiliated, and blacklisted, except for the way far right world of politics, after this mess is over. 

the zoner haters are coming on strong - lol kids see you in 4.5 years. 

 I'll choose not to name names, they can eviscerate themselves, slowly with a dull butter knife   (LOLOL?)  - 

is it weed driven hate?

 fyi,  it will be legal in 3 years....

weak weak feeble fun, boosts your egos???

hating is addictive?, 

Thinking of people's judgments based on ancient history; one of the goals of life is to grow, learn from experience, make new decisions using things you now know. It seems more important to look at a person's current actions/record than only something from the distant past. Racket, your links and meme are old news, and some of them published by sensationalist organizations. Who cares if someone dated Willie Brown that many years ago, etc.?

You're ok with an elected official creating tax payer funded jobs for his girlfriend?

yea, you would think it's no big deal they dated and not see the root issue.

Wasn't the job there? He didn't create it for her, she filled it. Right?

What is the root issue really?

She had no business in healthcare.  The root issue is being played by the democrat party once again.

There's gotta be one in every thread. Sometimes more. LOL 

I think you mean she had no previous experience in healthcare funding or approving of contracts? I'm not saying it wasn't a sweet appointment for her while she also worked at her day jobs, it was.

Who's really being played by the Democratic party as you see it? Are you concerned about that? Oh, I never thought that you might be a Dem.

Slickrock, Racket likes to bring the conservative and creepy view to threads. He likes to poke, though usually at Turtle, not at me. But I sometimes like to play.

 While not naming names

rackey,  you are just disgusting 

it is truly quite sad

zero class.  Do you hate all women equally??

blow me

 While not naming names

rackey,  you are just disgusting 

it is truly quite sad

zero class.  Do you hate all women equally??

blow me. Again

Kamala Harris LOL.

The clueless Dems couldn't beat a sociopathic real estate scammer in 2016 and now, with what should be a lay-up victory, are trotting out a Biden/Harris ticket. This is almost as bad as Hillary/Kaine. 

Either they are far more convinced of their modeling this time around, or are truly incompetent. 

We will see.

>>The clueless Dems couldn't beat a sociopathic real estate scammer in 2016

They did beat him by 3.000.000 votes in 2016.

Unfortunately - "rigged" electoral college system thwarted the will of the majority.

Personally, I like Harris more than Rice. I think she's a lot more professional, a lot smarter and lot more progressive. I can't decide if it's a smart political move, though, or a bad one. On the one hand, she may bring in more of the progressive wing and solidify the center. On the other hand, she may ostracize a lot of black voters for her history of draconian incarceration and honestly, I just don't know how the Mid-West, rural voter will react to her. Racism is real and it's not always explicit. Like it or not, Rice was a far more appealing candidate (I think) to your average low-level racist. She's in the Republican industries and she barely looks Black, whatever that means. Kamala, I feel, triggers a more gut reaction and could isolate voters who were conservatish on the fence types, maybe don't likeTrump anymore but were waiting to see what direction Biden goes and now with this, they could disappear. Maybe.

Judit, regardless of what you think of Racket, you are here guilty of what pretty much every human being is guilty of: 100% rationalizing the stinky shit of their tribe while slinging arrows and darts for the same behavior among the other tribe. Kamala did not get a sweet deal. There's a very clear name for what happened there and it's called corruption. Her boyfriend (a very powerful and important politician) gave her a position she had no experience in, no qualifications for, that she had to go to twice a week, where she was absent 20% of the time, and got paid like 120k+ in today's money. That's not a sweet deal, my dear Judit - that's corruption.

And Number6: When you voted in the election you implicitly bought into the terms and conditions, the small lettering at the bottom. You can dislike the electoral college all you want, but your vote validated the election of Donald Trump by validating the system. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

Javs, if you were a US citizen....

Who would you vote for

trump or biden?

>>> That's not a sweet deal, my dear Judit - that's corruption. <<<

watch your mouth you condescending fuckwit.

>>And Number6: When you voted in the election you implicitly bought into the terms and conditions, the small lettering at the bottom. You can dislike the electoral college all you want, but your vote validated the election of Donald Trump by validating the system. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

Javs the Nihilist in action.
 

>>Javs, if you were a US citizen....

>>Who would you vote for

>>trump or biden?

He wouldn't vote for either of them because he is righteous and pure and only deals in hypotheticals and dutifully gives the finger to real world decisions.

(((((Root issues)))

Look at Javs, stepping up the pseudo intellectual arrogance. His answer is to vote for Mickey Mouse, which will do nothing other than to make himself feel better. That way there will be 4 more years of Trump, which will set up the revolution that we need (but will never happen).

"If you vote in the American presidential election, you're part of the problem and complicit."

Jesus dude, get a grip on reality. You're in la la land.

I learned a bunch about Harris from watching this report on PBS.  

Kamala Harris' path to the Democratic presidential ticket.
https://www.pbssocal.org/programs/pbs-newshour/running-mate-1597180833/

Thanks for posting that link, C-R. I saw that last night and thought it very informative. 

Though there's a bit of history that wasn't in it, and that "dirty laundry" and policy inconsistencies will be flushed out in the coming months.  

I would just like the record to show that yet again, having not been addressed by me, Brian has come out with a personal attack style comment and not a smidge of response to my points.

TOD, Judit and I understand each other just fine, thank you. We have a pretty nice virtual pseudo-friendship and have for a long time. No need for you in the middle. Another insult, no response post.

Number 6, another insult-no response post.

FOM, this:

"I believe Rice's approach to much-needed systemic reform might have been more fundamentally genuine and disarming to those who aren't "playing the game". "

Is a really interesting point and what I was referring to before. I don't know if Kamala is more or less attractive to the average voter in part for the reasons you mention. Rice, by virtue of her corporate ties and non-political (generally) context, may have been more appealing to the more center-right branch of the centrists. I guess we'll see what the polls say in the next few weeks about Kamala, but we'll never know what they would have said had it been Rice.

Oh, and yes, getting a job you don't have to do and aren't qualified for and that pays a hefty salary from your boyfriend who is in a position of power to give you that job? Still corruption.

Javs, if you were a US citizen....

Who would you vote for

trump or biden?

javs clarifying her willie brown issues is arrogance?

look. what are the dems doing about the swing states?

what are they doing about mail in ballots?

stop being so fucking butt hurt that people scrutinize the candidates.

none of this matters if the 2 issues are not addressed. then you can go back to feeling like the noble rational compromisers you espouse to be.

>>> javs clarifying her willie brown issues is arrogance? <<<

he didn't clarify shit

all he did was opine 

>>> Judit, regardless of what you think of Racket, you are here guilty of what pretty much every human being is guilty of: 100% rationalizing the stinky shit of their tribe while slinging arrows and darts for the same behavior among the other tribe. <<<

you're an idiot.

TOD is at 4.8 on the meltdown scale.

^ settle down sailor

>>Number 6, another insult-no response post.

Javs (playing Rick Sanchez): (burp) Come on Morty we must go fight the windmills!

Number 6 (playing Morty): Oh jeez, Rick...

Scrutinize the candidates all you want. By all means, point out the problems with the system. It's the dire lack of realistic and viable solutions that's a joke.

>And Number6: When you voted in the election you implicitly bought into the terms and conditions, the small lettering at the bottom. You can dislike the electoral college all you want, but your vote validated the election of Donald Trump by validating the system. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

That right there is one of the most ridiculous comments I've read here. What he's saying, in no uncertain terms, is that if you vote you're part of the problem.

Not voting isn't a solution, unless one wants 4 more years of Trump, which will set the stage for a revolution that changes our political system.

That's not a realistic solution to jack shit.

Right. 

The Javs "solution":

If you vote you are part of the problem.

If you don't vote you are part of the problem.

for the record, i also believe it is a bit idealistic to simply not vote.

i mean if we were getting the normal bush co or clinton co type of boning...its one thing. but this motherfucker is burning down the house we all live in and hastening its rush into some sort of fascist state. 

So I take it you all agree that Kamala is corrupt then?

Anybody interested in my thoughts on how Kamala may isolate the centrist MidWest low level racist voter? Swing states?

And Number, you have it all wrong. If you vote for candidates who actively and deliberately perpetuate a system that creates inequality, furthers warfare and destroys the environment, you are part of the problem. If you don't, you are not part of the problem.

To think that the solution to the world's problems is political is to me, laughable. An infinite universe provides an infinite amount of avenues in which to influence the reality around us. And every influence is ultimately holographic, not one bigger than another. You might plant flowers in your garden and one day someone walking by will see them and be inspired to create a machine that gathers water and transforms nutrients the way that the plant does, thereby solving global hunger issues. Who knows? Find your avenue where you can do good in the universe, if such is your intention, and go with it.

As far as I can tell (I may be wrong), but there's only three or four people on the zone who actually do any kind of local political activism. I get the feeling that many of you are convinced that you can sit on your couch, live your life, drive your car, and that by casting your vote you have done your part in terms of contributing to society. I don't think that's true. I don't think voting is all that important and that sometimes the right flower in the right place can have just as much or more of an impact. Voting can tweak a system, but ultimately change happens when people get fed up and demand it. They demand it in a variety of ways, but true change happens through mass movements, peaceful or otherwise. And those mass movements happen when peoples' gut, their feelings are kicked into gear. Just think: if 4 years of Trump could make you feel so righteous about what you value in your country, what effect would 8 have? 

So yeah, you vote for the system, you buy the package. You commit to the ideal that you can change it from within. I don't think you really can. Like the old adage says, if voting could change the system, it would be illegal.

"i mean if we were getting the normal bush co or clinton co type of boning...its one thing. but this motherfucker is burning down the house we all live in and hastening its rush into some sort of fascist state."

And I respect that, Turtle. I just feel differenty. 

Javs you can play high and mighty all day long if you need to, but my strong belief is that not voting is about the most foolish thing a responsible citizen can do. 

I have not voted in the past and I have written in Jerry Garcia often - but I don;t think it did any good for anyone - not even me in the long run.

That's where we differ, Mr. Number, sir: to me, voting over and over for the same cookie-cutter candidates who promote war, inequality and environmental destruction and not seeing how that perpetuates and validates the system, that, to me, is foolishness.

To identify so strongly with any nation/state, any country, any -ism, is to me foolish. It shows a lack of recognition of what makes us fundamentally human. It's not our political borders, that much I know.

I do appreciate that you assume who I do and do not vote for.

So every time I have voted for Bernie over the last 30 years, for example, was foolish?

I think I have literally voted for him (between primaries and elections) about 20-30 times.

I voted for several progressive candidates yesterday in the Vermont primaries.

Many of them lost despite my vote.

I'm such a fool, I guess?

Lol, do you even read?

"voting over and over for the same cookie-cutter candidates who promote war, inequality and environmental destruction and not seeing how that perpetuates and validates the system, that, to me, is foolishness."

Bernie, is no cookie-cutter candidate...

"I do appreciate that you assume who I do and do not vote for."

I haven't assumed anything. I said that voting for that type of candidate is foolishness and you got your panties in a bunch. Now, in an edit you tell us that you've written Jerry Garcia in your ballot before. Even having written nothing, you participated in validating the system and ergo whoever won that election.

And to clarify yet again: While Bernie reflects my values and ideals, what I most respect about him is his integrity. Campaign financing clarity. That should be step 1 for any candidate. If I saw a right wing candidate who had gotten to be a candidate solely from grass-roots small contributions, who was clearly honest, not in bed with industry, etc. I would praise that candidate as well, even though I would not vote for them.

The Secretary of State’s office said in a tweet late Wednesday night that “it appears Vermont voters have shattered the previous primary turnout record.” 

I live in a state of fools!


Went to vote my ballot, strangest I could find
Laid my progressive position down,voted down the line
I won't vote for beggar's pay, likewise war or fossil fuels
But I would slave to learn the way to not have to vote for fools

>>Lol, do you even read?

Javs - do you ever unclench your sphincter and let out even a modest laugh?

you believe not voting is the answer javs.

US citizens believe living is more important than your political ideology.

it's crazy that you think politics first is more important than trying to survive a global pandemic.

because that's what we're trying to do, fucking survive.

the only way we move forward is FIRST vote his ass out.

second is getting to work.

the chicken and egg big brain thing is tired bro.

Number, I make a point of unclenching my sphincter and laughing at least 3 times a day. By schedule. Good hearty laugh. Then I go back to my routine of hanging ice blocks off my balls and repeatedly piercing my nipples.

If I remember correctly, your state voted for Bernie in the primary, no? So you're still going on about this fools thing because apparently you need something to be frustrated about today, but if you understood what I wrote, you would see that I was saying that your state would, in fact, not be a state of fools.

TOD, I'm glad you feel that way but I disagree. If this lesser-of-two-evils cycle hadn't been normalized and validated over the last 40 years, you wouldn't have a raging populist like Trump in office in the first place. If you continue the cycle, there's a good chance that the next time a pandemic or major crisis comes, you may have an even worse blowhard in power. The trend is clear. I've mapped it out very clearly in the Biden VP thread. You keep on pushing the center to the right. That's all you're accomplishing.

Javs, there is no one singular point of view. Every citizens has there reason to vote for or against a candidate.

Your stating you wouldn't vote in this election is your choice. However, I would encourage any voter in a non-swing state to vote for Biden simply to pad the popular vote against Trump. He tried to talk his way out of his 3,000,000 vote shortfall in 2016 (Fraud! Illegals!!). He won't be able to if it's 10,000,000 votes. We need a mandate from the public....a BIG THUMBS DOWN.

So, are you part of the problem, or the solution?

Electoral college is not fraud, I'm sorry. It ain't fraud if it's legal.

You and I understand the problem differently. I don't think you can vote your way out of this problem, at least not by voting for a candidate like Biden.

I posted this in the other thread, but think it's valuable for our conversation here:

This is the progression of the conservativism scale over the last 40 years or so:

1 Most Liberal - 10 Hard conservative

Carter: 1

Ford: Not sure

Reagan: 5

HW: 6

Clinton: 4

W: 7

Obama: 5

Trump: 9

Do you see the pattern? This is what the lesser-of-two-evils creates. Cause and effect. By voting for the lesser-of-two-evils you don't ameliorate the effects of the right - you deepen them. What's next?

>> I don't think you can vote your way out of this problem, at least not by voting for a candidate like Biden. <<

Your implication is that Biden is no better than Trump, or, Trump is no worse than Biden.

That is laughable. This country is a powder keg under Trump. Biden will diffuse that bomb. Yes, we need to advance to bigger and better objectives, but voting Trump OUT is step number one.

>>> That's all you're accomplishing. <<<

lol, great debate bro, but the trump administration is actively trying to kill us.

dig?

you seem fairly confident that if US becomes a failed democracy, it will have no effect on Chile.

which is funny, because you've made numerous references to how the US affects the whole world.

smh

Carter was not a 1...maybe 2.5-3.0.

>>Number, I make a point of unclenching my sphincter and laughing at least 3 times a day. 

Hallelujah! 

Carter never ordered soldiers to war or dropped bombs on brown people

This is pretty much the definition of a "1", politically speaking. 

I mean, maybe it's arguing nuance. But if this curve is weighted against the actual actions/positions of past presidents (and not ideas), then he's effectively the standard bearer.

>>Carter never ordered soldiers to war or dropped bombs on brown people

Carter reinstituted the draft in 1980 after Nixon ended it in 1973. .

My thoughts in red

1 Most Liberal - 10 Hard conservative

Carter: 1 3 Bernie would be a 1 - Carter WAS a business man - since Carter left the Presidency than he became a 1

Ford: Not sure 6

Reagan: 5 9

HW: 6 6

Clinton: 4 6

W: 7 ? Maybe 7?   However Cheney>Rumsfeld Solid 9

Obama: 5 4 Maybe 3

Trump: 9 10

>>>>>By voting for the lesser-of-two-evils you don't ameliorate the effects of the right - you deepen them.

In any election, either the greater of two evils or the lesser of two evils will win. You don't want the lesser of two evils - does that mean one should vote for the greater of two evils? The "president" of Belarus just got 97% of the vote.

Iff it doesn't matter, why even post about it?

Ford was never elected. I don't think he counts.

If he does count, then it's because he bartered his way into the presidency by abusing his pardon powers to the benefit of Richard Nixon.

If trump is a 10, Ford is around a 9.2.

False, 6.

The selective service is not a draft. It is a precursor to a draft, that I will give you. It began after WWI. Wilson. Carter did reaffirm it.

Carter pardoned Vietnam draft dodgers in full.

Alright Bss, but as someone who protested, who watched the Viet Nam war nightly and for sure felt its effects in my friends who were drafted and died and I never saw again - it felt like Carter had brought back a bad memory.

But hey - I'm a huge Carter fan.  What he has done after he was voted out is nothing short of Jesus level  honest to goodness Christianity. Fred Rogers level even! 

There was a two year window of no selective service registration requirements after the Vietnam era during the Carter years. I fell into that period. 

starts at 38 minutes - just earlier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=324akR35czE

Love the Curtis mayfield nod....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z66wVo7uNw

Jav, I'm sorry that I didn't mark my "sweet appointment" (my words) remark as a more than that, I was being unnecessarily terse in what I was saying to Racket. It looked to me like the job to which she was appointed was something most attorneys could do without healthcare experience because it was approving contracts devised by people more experienced. Perhaps I missed something. I get that she was appointed by her boyfriend and a perk of the relationship. Is it still as common as it was in those days? I don't know.

T.O.D., I was okay with Jav's statement that might have seemed condescending, but didn't sound that way to me. As Jav said, we do understand each other just fine. We have a pretty nice virtual pseudo-friendship and have for a long time. <<< 
The relationships many of us have built as Zoners can create a little space for interpretation and acceptance.

Which brings up another point: What the fuck is it about some Zoners who need to insult each other as part of their discussion (on a discussion board)? It could almost be seen as a Vermont thing, though there are others who engage in the same thing. 

Well, that's quite the insult to all Vermonters, Judit. Most impressive. Well done. Thanks for the push.

You could see it as a Vermont thing, but that would just be silly. California has us beat by miles, in both quantity and overall level. Chile has come on strong with the veiled insults, and also with the overt ones. New Jersey does pretty well for itself, as does Oregon. Massachusetts has a strong history, and Colorado is no slouch.

So, it seems that your comment, which painted a very broad stroke and isn't rooted in fact, is nothing but an insult. See that, Judit, I responded directly to the content of your post, as you ask for.

Maybe you don't see it, but when someone poses opinion as fact and then cuts down anyone who disagrees or calls them out on it, that's an insult. It's also arrogant.

I think people see what THEY WANT to see. Very revealing.

Judit, could you watch your indecent language? It sets a micro-aggression tone that is quite offensive, given the standards you've proclaimed. 

>>voting over and over for the same cookie-cutter candidates who promote war, inequality and environmental destruction and not seeing how that perpetuates and validates the system, that, to me, is foolishness."

So, anyone who votes for a candidate other than the ones he approves is "foolish," or engaging in foolishness.

I'd call that a pretty broad insult on over 100 million Americans. It's actually disgusting, and sickeningly arrogant.

There's post after post of that stuff, veiled in pseudo intellectualism and long paragraphs.

Damn son, Judit talking mad shit bout Vermonters dawg

After all the Jesse Jackson preaching act here on the zone even queen Judit enjoys her some trolling

>>> T.O.D., I was okay with Jav's statement that might have seemed condescending, 

but didn't sound that way to me. <<<

ok judit

on a side note, regardless that you say you have a pretty nice virtual pseudo-friendship and have for a long time

with javs.

doesn't mean you're grasping the bigger picture here.

which I think is, he's taking advantage of your unique relationship 

and lambasting viva ad naseum about how we shouldn't vote at all.

and how it's cool with him that 169,161 US citizens are dead, with no end in sight.

Buy the ticket, take the ride - javs

Haha, freedom of speech is a bitch, ain't it. It sucks to defend freedom of speech when the person you're talking to says things you don't like. Yes, I'm saying don't vote. Now go out and wipe your tushy with some poison ivy see if that makes you itch a little more.

BK, cuadrupling down on the personal attacks, lol.

Let's not forget that the US is the country that brought us Britney Spears, McDonalds and the world's highest obesity rates. There's some fairly serious decision making difficulties among a large percentage of the populace...

Trini Lopez is gone.

Also judit, I believe that we've learned a shit ton about our friends (virtual or 3D) since trump took over.

that shines a light on who people really are, I mean, why wouldn't it?
 

so when javs says we deserve another 4 years of trump, he says we deserve to die

and that includes you.

jus sayin'

Dramatic much?  

“Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community"

>>> Dramatic much? <<<

it may seem that way racket, I get it, truth is hard for some.

Slacker, How's the section 8 application coming along?

Why would I need that?

>>>Yes, I'm saying don't vote.

That's a solution? Totally just blew your credibility as a "thinking" adult. 

Call me old-fashioned, but I think of Normandy on Election Day, and all the souls who died there and other places during that war to preserve this right. And of "Tank Man", who stood ready to die for that right. And all the people in Hong Kong suffering now. And Belarus. All over the world, people are dying to TRY to have voice.  

Yeah our country is fucked up. Any place with this many opinions on how to do things is going to have it's conflicts. And the pendulum of power swings temporarily.   

Please consider the idea a better way might be to get involved and try to fix things. Judging from the protests lately, it seems there's a lot of folks who think that way. Boycotting the voting booth doesn't seem like a good idea. 

But I do support freedom of speech.

I support your right to say it, and my right to critique your opinion, shake my head, ignore you, wish you a good day and walk away, rather than argue and try to convince you otherwise.  

Javs, look back at your attacks on me the other day. Those were personal attacks. Calling you arrogant and pseudo-intellectual (or evening an hypocrite) is hardly similar.

The other day I asked you to provide realistic and viable solutions to the problems, that with maximum verbosity, you rant about. As I said, I don't necessarily disagree. Where you fall short is with your "solutions," which are useless. It's just blather, veiled insults, and uselessness. You don't have viable solutions, you just put people down for not agreeing with yours.

what is this thread even about?

what are you defending here every day?

>trini lopez<

my friend has a sick trini gibson.

Wow! Damn! BK, Tod just blew past you in the dramatic rhetoric department; I'm sorry, but I think I'm going to have to reconsider who I give the award to.

Slick, I like that you got through your post almost completely without being a jerk but then you couldn't help but succumb to the temptation. But it's cool, you got like an 89% which is better than most on this thread.

zona: T 49 B 45

tex: T 46 B 44

Georg: T 48 B45

what are they doing about this?

other than asking me for money?

pseudo friends suck

javs is a poser

Thanks for the high score, Javs, not that it matters at all. But to quote someone (Oh, you!) from a post above - 

"Haha, freedom of speech is a bitch, ain't it. It sucks to defend freedom of speech when the person you're talking to says things you don't like."

Mirrors suck sometimes. Have a good day,  bud. Play nice, eh? 

> Let's not forget that the US is the country that brought us Britney Spears.

Such intuitive political thought. Now we're getting somewhere. 

Which one of your 4,000 word posts isn't dramatic rhetoric?

I've asked you a question, which isn't rhetoric. The only thing you can answer with is dramatic rhetoric. It's all you've got. You're a pro at regurgitating the problems, but you fucking suck at finding viable solutions.

Do they have freedom of speech in Chile?

Fanatastic speech yesterday by her and Biden looked to be in better form than in some time. Got me fired up to remove the current crooks.  Haven't read any of the thread above me as to not lose my shine. 

Has Britney Spears played in Chile?

I wonder if you guys can keep this passive aggressive mildly dramatic crying match going into the weekend.

kamala harris is not the first woman to be tapped by joe biden

While I'd like to say "If any of you people need something productive to do, there are always weeds to pull and ditches to dig here on the Farm",  I realize that Politics weirdos just can't lift a shovel.

You're better off tossing pebbles at each other and setting statues on fire,  rather than wearing out my shovels.

When the next election show's over I hope you all can go back to Jell-O sculpture or Finger Painting... something creative.

I don't mean to imply that the PW's CAN'T lift a shovel,  just acknowledging that their hands don't fit one. Not everyone is born / created to produce anything of value,  which is Great for society in general.

So many suppositions, Stu. Although I'm not great with a chainsaw, I can dig a ditch with the best of them.

Why does political shit bother you so much?

Stu, are you still putting lipstick on your dog and holding him hostage? That poor canine...

Britany Spears is an All-American gal.

Mouseketeer, pop-star, recovering addict....she's got it all!

Judit with the troll hit & run. Why I tell ya'...lol

It sounds like Judit's chakras may be misaligned. Hopefully she can consult her crystals to empower a more positive energy flow.

I'm here, Numero 6. It just hit me that way.

Tatters, thank you for hoping I'll catch a more positive energy flow.

I was thinking of writing some long winded response explaining my thoughts point by point, but it would take too much effort right now. But in the spirit of good conversation, dialogue, let me present this nugget.

Today, Israel and UAE signed a peace deal, with many rammifications. DJT is of course taking credit for this, and in some ways his strong relationship with Israel and Netanyahu probably had a lot to do with this. How do you think this will influence the policies of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris? I ask because as we all know, the Israel lobby in Washington is very strong. Obama's challenging of Israeli policy brought him a lot of questioning during his presidency. Now that Biden/Harris are trying to get elected, I imagine they need to court the Israel lobby, or at very least, not piss them off. But with this move, Trump put them strongly in his pocket - Netanyahu even said this does not mean they're reconsidering the settlements. So, is that going to affect Biden? If he chooses to take a stronger pro-Israel stance, then that implies continuing the insane amounts of military aid given every year to Israel by the US, and basically having to court and woo the military/Israel lobby to get into power and stay firmly there.

Do you not think this is a clear case of how Biden may be forced to move his platform further right as a reaction to the Don's doings? I don't think the timing is a coincidence. On the contrary, it seems like a pretty strong symbol to a pretty powerful group of people...

Thoughts?

Javs how did trump's presumably strong relationship with Netanyahu actually influence a peace deal between Israel and UAE?

Answer to your question is depends on whether republicans keep the senate or not.

Trump and Bibi are both dirtbags.

Did the UAE formally recognize Israel? Since 9/11, many Arab nations have opened dialogue with Israel because they want and need the intel on ISIL and Iran. 

Many American Jews, who vote primarily on Israel, hated the choice of Rice because she is viewed as "Obama's anti Israel legacy." Harris, on the other hand, has a Jewish husband and has spoken at AIPAC.

I believe that a lot of that demographic would still have voted for Biden even if he had picked Rice. Anyone half sane sees what Trump is doing to this country and the world.

Yes, I do not think that it's moving Biden farther to the right. You might want to question why you think it is.

>>seems like a pretty strong symbol to a pretty powerful group of people...

I know you'll say otherwise, but that's the same sort of anti Semitic trope that Ilhan Omar would use, and then apologize for. Is there a place for that type of free speech on Viva?

So Harris has a Jewish husband, is certainly a hard pro-Israel person, and now her and Biden have to wrestle away that particular voting block from Trump by ratcheting up their support for hard core militarism in Israel and the West Bank, etc. How is that not veering to the right? You might want to question why you think it's not.

>> - Netanyahu even said this does not mean they're reconsidering the settlements <<

They suspended the annexation.

Yes, Trump has set up Biden to feel gravity towards a pro-Israel agenda. Announcing the US embassy move to Jerusalem adds even more pressure (even without building it). Of course, Biden can simply keep the embassy in Tel Aviv and say we don't have the budget. Easy peasy.

Because that voting bloc, as a whole, was never on Trump's side. Sure, some were, but not the majority.

Obama proved that that bloc isn't that powerful and both their money and power isn't needed. It's just an anti Semitic trope. Pretty standard from the far Left these days, around the world.

when is israel attacking germany?

In case anyone really cares, over 70% of individual American donations to Israel come from evangelical Christians. Why? End of days prophecy. Trump's cabinet is filled with those nut jobs. They are the ones with the money and power.

> ... he chooses to take a stronger pro-Israel stance, then that implies continuing the insane amounts of military aid given every year to Israel by the US, and basically having to court and woo the military/Israel lobby to get into power and stay firmly there.

So now Javs is promoting anti Semitic tropes. Why is this not a surprise. 
Let me guess. The zero dimensional tic tax toe player will now say that he's not anti Semitic just anti Zionist.

hating is "free"  free to hate and pontificated but not free to vote  

symbolic?

what and where did he use a trope?

So, front page of the BBC today has this article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53770859

Israel and UAE strike historic deal to normalise relations

The tag under the title says "Trump Peace Plan"

The second paragraph of the article:

"In a surprise statement by US President Donald Trump, who helped broker it, the countries called the accord "historic" and a breakthrough toward peace."

So yes, Donnie is involved. This is not my guess work, this is the BBC reporting. The pro-Israel lobby is strong, not small. And yes, in that is included the entire Evangelical wing which has a good bit of power among the Christian right these days. Add that to the members of the Jewish community in the US who strongly support a pro-Zionist policy from the US, and you have yourself a powerful lobby. So yeah, Biden now has to prove to that lobby that he's going to do for them like Trump has. If the lobby was insignificant changing an embassy to Jerusalem would be insignificant, but it's not. So Biden pulls further right: of course we are going to keep on approving and supplying military aid to Israel, and don't worry, of course we'll get our party on board.

Is it really that hard to see how that plays out?

Oh, and now I'm anti-semitic? Awesome. I'm going to have to start another list for Dave and his man-crush on me...

And Bibi made quite clear:

""There is no change in my plan to apply our sovereignty to Judea and Samaria [West Bank] in full co-ordination with the US. I'm committed to it. That hasn't changed. I remind you that I was the one who put the issue of sovereignty over Judea and Samaria on the table. This issue remains on the table," he said.2

I don't think the US position on Israel is a sit you issue at all in this election.

And again: military economy. Why is it so hard to realize the direct correlation there? When more than 50% of the world's largest economy goes to military spending, that machine is sooooo powerful that it literally forms the foundation of the entire economy and therefore the functioning of the nation. The people with money know this and are vested in this. 

Woz, I don't know what you mean about a "sit you" position, but I just don't know. But I can see how it would be one way in which a President like Biden and his VP Harris would want to move their actual policies in line with current military spending and more.

Stupid phone:

I don't think the US position on Israel is much of an issue at all in this election.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93United_States_relations#:~:....

I know, it's wikipedia, but the money is huge. Try to fathom the reality behind that number. Think about all the industries that are involved in creating that 3.8 billion in foreign military aid. Who makes all the planes, and bombs, and guns, etc? How many factory workers? How many plastic cup companies provide plastic cups for factory workers in factories creating military gear destined for Israel?

3.8 billion smackers worth.

Javs is currently penning a 6 paragraph essay on why it is an issue, and how anyone who doesn't see it that way is stupid and/or ignorant.

flounc'n 'round the room 

> Oh, and now I'm anti-semitic? Awesome. I'm going to have to start another list for Dave and his man-crush on me...

So U think it's awesome that U R anti-Semitec. Swell. 

Far from having a man crush on someone who takes pride in using Anti Semitic tropes. 
It's just sad. 

Is this a trope?

“Unlike the African-American community, with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community"

what is the trope!?

israel gets tax payer $ to buy our military industrial complex's goods?

is that an anti-semetic statement ?

whose got my heady trope...

Javs and trump are on the same team

no voting allowed

both are in.   ..teretesting.   ....sane

just kidding javs boy.  No insults allowed    Put downs are though 

what is this thread even about?<<<

Billy Carter's brother, Jimmy , Turtle.

Knowing  better and willfully abdicating one's responsibility as an American is different then being a fox news zombie idiot. 

The anti Semitism of the far left is real, well documented, insidious and extremely dangerous.

I'm going to suggest, Turtle, that you do some real research into what it looks like and how it plays itself out. Then, go back and read Jav's first few posts about the subject, and even question why exactly he brought it in to this discussion. The intent and verbiage meet every definition of anti Semitism. As Woz said, Israel isn't even an issue here. However, in comes a dude with some shit about Jewish power and money, and how politicians pander to it. Deny it all you want, but that's exactly what he was saying. It's so fucking insidious and accepted, and it's disgusting.

bk, did you call omar an anti semite? 

i think lltd is too stupid to know he's kinda racist. 

It’s like Roger Waters thread 2.0

I said that Omar has had to apologize for using very similar tropes, which is 100% factual.

Meanwhile, in other news, Trump has started birtherism on Harris.

Jesus, BK, you really do have such a hard-on for me it's starting to get pretty gross. So now I wake up and check this thread to find you calling me an anti-semite, and yet you never insult anyone. Do you realize that the long list of bullshit tags you've tried to stick on me just make you look like a grumpy, white, entitled American male? You kinda sound, well, you kinda sound like your average Trumper, honestly.

I laid out the facts clearly. There is such a thing as a Pro-Israel Lobby. Christians United For Israel is an organization with 7.1 million members, according to wikipedia. The American Israel Public Affairs Committe has 100,000 members and is directly listed as a lobby group. So there are religious organizations fighting for a pro-Israel military stance, and then the military industry I'm sure is keen to keep on banking those almost 4 billion a year.

Yesterday I opened the BBC and the first thing I saw was an article about how DJT brokered this deal between Israel and the UAE, giving him credence among the Pro-Israel lobby, meaning that for Joe to convince that lobby that he's there guy, he has to be willing to match Trumps anti, and commit to at least what Trump is doing right now. Ergo, he has to slide his position to the right to accomodate them. 

The 4 billion is a drop in the bucket of the American military budget and it represents a gigantic industry which forms the entire foundation of the American economy and therefore the American project. I have suggested repeatedly that this factoid is enough to sway any politician who has their hands mixed into the corporate world, as there is basically no industry that is not somehow affected by this.

So now I'm an anti-semite. Brian, please, just stop fucking talking to me, or about me, or what you think of me. It's creepy as shit, you're totally wrong and ultimately you're just showing what an asshole you really are. 

fac·toid

a brief or trivial item of news or information.

an assumption or speculation that is reported and repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact.

only b/c corporate media and the establishment dems forced her to. 

they hate her, for many reasons -- bs anti semitic rhetoric is what msnbc and fox pushed, and pelosi regurgitated. 

this is really funny tho, b/c i brought up the anti semitic attacks the corporate media carried out against bernie in the primary, and bk said he didn't notice any -- legit anti semitic attacks. 

wild. 

That's not how it works, Javs. You post on. Message board and you get responses.

Turts asked what was anti Semitic. I answered. Maybe you too should do some research. It's so normalized that you don't even see it.

No, ogkb, I did the research and found one example, which wasn't at all. I asked you for more examples and you didn't give any, telling me to look, which I had already done.

this is great. 

you spoke about the omar piece b/c it was covered on corporate media, endlessly.  

you didn't recognize the bernie attacks b/c the corporate media didn't cover it. 

Selective outrage against anti Semitism, to meet your political needs...

It's real, and shouldn't be politicized.

i totally agree. 

so why aren't you acknowledging the blatant anti semitic attacks that were lobbied against bernie? 

strange. is it b/c you think he'd make a shitty president? 

Jesus, because I looked and looked and couldn't find more than that one. I'd speak out against it even if it was against some right wing person. Why? Because it needs to be pointed out at all levels and from wherever it's coming from.

If you don't think there's deep anti Semitism from the far left, you're blind. Again, it's real and well documented.

The far left doesn’t exist in America 

Ilhan Omar responded to a tweet from journalist Glenn Greenwald by saying  "It's all about the Benjamins baby,"

Meanwhile a Zoner wrote "he chooses to take a stronger pro-Israel stance, then that implies continuing the insane amounts of military aid given every year to Israel by the US, and basically having to court and woo the military/Israel lobby to get into power and stay firmly there."

In her defense, after people expressed concern about the original tweet, Ilhan Omar tweeted the following:

Anti-Semitism is real and I am grateful for Jewish allies and colleagues who are educating me on the painful history of anti-Semitic tropes. My intention is never to offend my constituents or Jewish Americans as a whole,  That is why I unequivocally apologize,"

i agree man -- of course it should be called out, always, no matter who is the recipient. 

and establishment dems and the corporate media played that angle for months, trashing bernie, just saying. 

it's well documented -- can't believe you can't find any of it. 

just that omar was forced to apologize. 

3.9 billion dollars in military supplies a year is not insane? That's not an insane amount of money?

BK, you are the only person on this board who goes out of his way to try to stick some label on me every single day. The funny thing is, every label you try to stick on me is the same tired shit that American conservatives always try to stick on people when they want to discredit them and ignore their arguments. So I get it now: you're an angry old closet-conservative. It's all starting to make sense to me now... 

The only label I'll stick you, and that matters, is your anti Semitism.

"if you understand what I wrote"

blair?

  Saying "3.9 billion dollars in military supplies a year is not insane? That's not an insane amount of money?" Sure sounds a lot like "It's all about the Benjamins baby,"

As to whether Omar was forced to apologize or did so sincerely is a up for discussion.  That said, at least she didn't respond by saying "now I'm anti-semitic? Awesome."

You can be for ALL people of the planet and not be anti Semitic, contrary to those who throw the term around as if people are actually sitting at home hating 

Oops.

Duplicate post.

> You can be for ALL people of the planet and not be anti Semitic.

Absolutely. Some people can even engage in political disagreements without being disagreeable.  

On the other hand, by introducing anti-Semitic tropes into a discussion about American politics, perhaps expressing some concern is legitimate. 

Just saying.  

ALL people. 

I love that the PC line has now been pushed to "if you dare question the fact that the US sends 3.9 billion in military hardware to Israel you are an anti-semite". Super. 

Yes ALL people.  Including Palestinians, Israelis, people of all faiths, atheists and agnostics.  

I'm not sure about cannibals, but as long as they stay away from me, I guess that's cool.

Its a buzz word really 

"Anti semitism" is a buzz word?

If one want's to discuss US military support for any other country, have at it.

Saying It's all about the Benjamins baby, or introducing other anti-Semitic tropes is not super.  

If that concept is to difficult for anyone to grok, perhaps they need to try a little harder.

In military context, $3.9B isn't that much, at all.

A google search found: "More than two hundred countries receive U.S. aid. It disproportionately goes to a few, however, with the top five all receiving over $1 billion per year as of 2016: Iraq ($5.3 billion), Afghanistan ($5.1 billion), Israel ($3.1 billion), Egypt ($1.2 billion), and Jordan ($1.2 billion)..."

Israel is as much a strategic investment (for US interests) in the region as it is "support" for Israel.

It is indeed these days

Well Fish, when documented acts of overt anti semitism have rapidly increased in the US (double digits year after year), and around the world there's a massive uptick, including the takeover of England's Labour Party, it's pretty fucked up to reduce it to a buzz word.

thanks for the reply bk.

however i don't agree.

yes israel is a strategic investment.

also, their foreign and domestic policies exacerbate  global tensions and is a real problem.

the tax payers continuing to give them $3billion IS an issue. you know how they use it?

nobody here is claiming that they have all the $$ and influence and are trying to take over the world. nobody.

this is a real question: How are you to scrutinize the foreign and domestic polices of Israel and our continued support for a regional govt. that openly causes world wide tension? If just by brining the topic up, one is considered anti-semetic? look this is a big problem, how do we discuss it respectufully?

in my experience ANY criticism of israeli POLICIES....is akin to saying they shouldn't even exist. I get the sensitivity but shit man...

I’m not saying it doesn’t exist but it’s definitely part of the narrative these days and folks think it’s indefensible once the accusation is levied

You missed what I've said, Turts. I criticize Israel as much as anyone. They deserve a lot. It's the deep seeded implications of Jewish power brokers, that need to be courted and drive policy, that is anti Semitic. It goes back 1,500 years. Please, do some research into what anti Semitism is. Although there are varying views, virtually every one would point to that comment (inference), and even question why it was brought up in the first place.

>> How are you to scrutinize the foreign and domestic polices of Israel and our continued support for a regional govt. that openly causes world wide tension? <<

YES. One would hope the US could leverage their influence on Israel. Sometimes it seems like its the other way around (mostly due to pro-Israel US lobby).

It appears the freeze on annexation in the West Bank IS an un-official condition to the UAE agreement.

"deep seeded implications of Jewish power brokers"

You keep on reading all your weirdest conservative old man projections at me. I listed two very specific examples of large, powerful lobby groups that directly influence policy on Israel. Further, I explicitly stated that there are interests here from multiple parties, not from some secret Jewish cabal. But again, you and your weird projections...

And the term is "deep-seated" btw...

Here's the fucked up thing: the mere existence of Israel will always cause world-wide tension. How do we move past that, with the understanding that Israel ain't going anywhere?

i dunno bk, that's true. they should start by changing their behavior, that would help.

>  I’m not saying it doesn’t exist but it’s definitely part of the narrative these days and folks think it’s indefensible once the accusation is levied

Sometimes anti-Semitism is ingrained while other times it is perpetuated with full knowledge and intent.
When an accusation of anti-Semitic behavior is made, of course one can dispute it's veracity.   
I guess U feel that the person making the claim is acting as judge, jury & executioner.  
How others perceive the accusation makes a difference. Like it ain't necessarily so.
On the other hand...

What one says and the context it is said in matters. At least to some. 

Yes, they have to. Annexations have to stop, and a whole bunch of other things need to change. Let me ask you this: what do the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabian Peninsula need to do differently? Don't forget, the total destruction of Israel is still in the Palestinian Constitution. 

Imagine what some former nations people’s would say about the very existence of our own constitution

i don't know about the rest of the arabian peninsula, but the pals can accept the state of isarael and not lob rockets? its the only thing they can do...the situation they live under is like a giant prison state.

Israel is just a fucked up nation. The USA is directly responsible for that. We just use them as our little dog and give them 4 Bil a year to do some dirty work for us. Then all the old racist white men involved in industrial business and government can say "We support Jewish people". It's pretty sad. If they didn't serve a purpose for oil interests and buy a lot of guns then we wouldn't give a fuck about them at all. Now Israel gets to wake up and fight Palestine everyday for the rest of their existence. Your welcome isreal 

^ circle jerker

Lol. This conversation was about how voting for Biden/Harris is ultimately a vote for perpetuating the war machine and neolib economies, but in true diversionary tactics worthy of Fox News, the "you're an anti-semite" crowd have veered the conversation towards a straw man that they can tear down without actually dealing with the original question of the ultimate and underlying allegiance of neolibs to a war economy. 

Oh well.