Moderates

The extreme right and left tend to be more vocal and dominate the conversation, giving the appearance that the country might be more polarized than it really is. 

I’m an Alt-Centrist 

Team Moderate

Fo6

 6ravy

Tho6

6azfish

Social media has been a notable and defining factor in the widening schism between the left and right. At first, it appeared that a digital spiderweb of communication and dialogue would perhaps brings the poles closer together. Yet through widespread disinformation and the apparent need of humans to aggressively preach 1/2 truths to their own choirs, the opposite happened.

I believe it was the great philosopher Chris Rock who said "anyone who always believes one side of an argument is a fucking fool". 

"nothin' in the middle of the road except yellow stripes and dead armadillos"....

It's strange when I think about it now.  I used consider myself a moderate in so far as being a fiscal conservative and socially liberal, but it's really more of a hybrid across issues vs. being an "average" that somehow equates to being moderate.   Also, when I stop and think about it, I have some extremely progressive ideas that might simply be too far "ahead of their time" - to one extent or another - and don't necessarily push too hard (although maybe ned & skifurthur would take issue with such a claim given my vocal stance for massive regulatory overhaul of public private relationships between ski area operators and USFS).    So, in a certain sense I'm not a moderate as far as having ideas that are many degrees outside the norm, but in practice I mostly accept the "reality" of slow acceptance over time of progressive ideas.    Seems like "no wine before it's time" applies to how public sentiment / opinion needs time to be cultivated over time in order to prompt a significant change. 

I’m generally very liberal, bordering on Socialist on economic things and libertarian on social issues. I’m also a realist, and over time have learned that things move at different rates at different levels of government. I do believe that the best way for me to move towards the society I would like to see is to vote my conscience on the local and State levels. I have no problems voting more moderately for President. Why? I believe that, at that particular level, a moderate voice can get more done.

i just want to vote for an atheist gay rights pacifist republican

Unless you are a trumper don't play this game of putting labels on the democratic candidates. . THis  the main stream media trying to influence the populace, all you got to do is vote for the person who is not trump. If you think that person is too liberal for your views, all you have to do is think about how bad our govt is being run right now by the fox news network. Whoever is elected to replace this mistake will only be able to do what congress allows him to do. 

We can hope that both houses will be led by Democrats.

>>> will only be able to do what congress allows her or him to do. <<<

Whoever they are, their main work is to build coalitions so that smart and compassionate laws can be enacted. Health care for all, clean air and water, untainted food for everyone, justice for all, women's control over their own bodies, clean energy, jobs revitalizing the infrastructure, etc. It can work, but only with people working together.

Yes, her or him, force of habit, as long as the criminal imposter is gone

all you got to do is vote for the person who is not trump<<<

I disagree.  

The system is broken and the Dems don't exactly have entirely clean hands; there are very few (if any) who aren't bought and paid for ... even if it's in a categorically different level and scope vs Trump.   While I will most certainly vote for any candidate that will give us the best chance of removing Trump from office, I believe it's imperative to have the most open discussion we've ever had about politics in order to affect meaningful reform ... even if it means fessing up to existing  shortcomings within the Dem party.   

Radical tree huggers unite. Its time.

While I will most certainly vote for any candidate that will give us the best chance of removing Trump from office>>

this

all you moderates gotta lineup behind bernie. 

he will lead you to a trump-less govt. you can then breathe. 

>>>>>the Dems don't exactly have entirely clean hands

Nobody does

>>> While I will most certainly vote for any candidate that will give us the best chance of removing Trump from office >>>

>>> this

Fog gets it.

>>>>>the Dems don't exactly have entirely clean hands

Nobody does

Hoover gets it.

california has moved up its primary significantly.

for the 1st time california will have a big say in who the nominee will be.

so can we vote for the best candidate in our minds? or do we need to get another neo-con lite? maybe next election?

Unless you are a trumper don't play this game of putting labels on the democratic candidates. . THis  the main stream media trying to influence the populace, all you got to do is vote for the person who is not trump. If you think that person is too liberal for your views, all you have to do is think about how bad our govt is being run right now by the fox news network. Whoever is elected to replace this mistake will only be able to do what congress allows him to do.

the 2 party, me vs you, "lesser of two evils", our way or the highway system of privatized political parties anointing the only two candidates with a chance is far, far worse than donald trump

i did not vote for hillary(or anybody) last election and until a candidate is presented that i feel is genuine and is not in the pockets of lobbyists, i will proudly continue that trend

"just voting for the guy who isnt trump" is just as much a symptom of giving into a broken and corrupt political system as people voting for him in the first place.

Just voting for the guy who is not trump isn't part of the symptom. The majority of the press will ask any dem candidate crazy questions especially if they are female. The stories are already starting, amy kobluchar is mean to her staff, harris isn't black enuf. Look at the white house, what is going on there is a criminal enterprise. Nothing else matters but trump getting the boot. Four more years of this corrupt enterprise there will not be a govt to worry about. Unless you personally benefited from the tax cut, then what else has this man done. Promises made promises not fulfilled.

>>>>>i did not vote for hillary(or anybody) last election and until a candidate is presented that i feel is genuine and is not in the pockets of lobbyists, i will proudly continue that trend

Have fun never voting because there will never be the candidate you describe.  All candidates will always be in someone’s pockets.

How about voting your conscience locally, and voting for the long-term effects of Supreme Court appointments on the Executive level?

Myopia is dangerous.

It's unfortunate that the words compromise and bipartisan have such a negative connotation today.

so we give up locally?

You’re doing it again.

well i reg'd dem for the last election, because, you know...bernie.

hanging in there. if he's in the party, he has my vote.

that's right, california will decide the next president.

we don't have time for you "moderates" to choose a lesser evil.

You wouldn’t know who Bernie is it we Progressives hadn’t been voting for him for the last 3 decades.

What’s pitiful is that you’ve labeled everyone who is not Bernie as a bad choice. 

>You wouldn’t know who Bernie is<

lol. yeah who heard of him before this!!!??!  

>What’s pitiful is that you’ve labeled everyone who is not Bernie as a bad choice. <

where did i do that?

look, if he doesn't get the nom. i will vote for whoever does...probably...

Here are my issues with Bernie:

1. The 2 party system is broken. He was a viable Independent, which is what we need, but he chose to run as a Dem. That pissed me off.

2. As a Dem, he knew that he had no chance of getting the Super Delegate votes or the nomination. However fucked that system was, he chose to jump in to it.

3. He took millions of dollars and gave millions of people false hopes, in a race he knew he couldn’t win.

4. Any Congressperson running for President misses votes. He missed considerably more than anyone else. As his constituent, I have to question that.

Bernie is Bernie. Anyone who knows him will tell you that he has a hell of an ego. That’s what the last run was, and this one even more so. Let’s not hold him up to false romantic ideals.

If he gets the nomination I’ll vote for him...probably.

1-3 doesn’t make sense, #2 and #3 are extra stupid. 

he’s the democratic front runner, running as a dem. lol.

you acknowledged the system is broken, yet hold it against bernie for trying to push his policy onto the public by playing the two party game. false hope? lol. he’s received more donations than anybody so far this run; he’s peoples’ only hope for breaking away from the neoliberal stronghold.

people like biden and harris don’t represent what the people want any longer, they represent the neoliberal, republican light/corporate dem (moderate? lol)  policy that many are sick of. biden is a fucking republican, i mean, come on, and the fact his name is even being mentioned in this run is sad. 

oh, and anybody else liking Ilhan Omar? woman is bad ass, lover her. she’s taking names and kicking ass in congress, about time we have somebody like her. moderates despise her, naturally. 

Which one is for hemp biodiesel? Hemp plastic.  Hemp paper etc?

>... anybody else liking Ilhan Omar?<

Republicans love her

^lol, too much msnbc for lumber.

Omar is a twofer, the Republicans can paint the Democrats as tolerant of antisemitism and Omar helps stoke the anti Muslim bigotry on the right.

Too much of the Vt echo chamber for you, pyramid. 

except nothing she’s said has been antisemitic. people need to think-the dems are bought, is your brain as well? seems like it. 

^except nothing she’s said has been antisemitic

Because the truth matters?

I live in a Republican town, have many Republican friends who do not like Trump, but they will vote for him because the Democrats want Socialism.  

Does the truth matter?

Are the dems calling themselves socialist? It's weird republicans call dems 'socialist' but refer to russia and china as 'capitalist'.

^sure is strange,  but perception has become reality. 

Democrats have a more positive view of socialism than capitalism, poll finds

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/08/14/democ...

For most the term Democratic Socialist is interchangeable with Socialist. 

Sanders and OAC are both Democratic Socialists.

AOC sure was a popular target at CPAC

If you think that Bernie has a hope of winning the 2016 nomination you’re either stupid or blind.

I know you think you’re an expert, but you’re clearly not.

Your arrogance, Pyramid, is startling.

>>>>>>>If you think that Bernie has a hope of winning the 2016 nomination you’re either stupid or blind.

What if there was a time machine involved?

bk loves putting words in people’s mouths. lol. expert? nah, man. 

bk,  your ignorance is starling. 

I'm willing to bet pyramid spelled Bernie wrong in the 2016 general.

Who's got the polls? 

If Bernie picked Julian Castro as vp he might have a chance. At least someone young in case he keels over and croaks mid term.

Mark Cuban 2020,  hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Heard it here first.

Scacker i think its too early for polls just yet.

in case you missed it.

>people like biden and harris don’t represent what the people want any longer, they represent the neoliberal, republican light/corporate dem (moderate? lol)  policy that many are sick of.<<

>>>>If Bernie picked Julian Castro as vp he might have a chance. At least someone young in case he keels over and croaks mid term.

Same can be said with that "neoliberal, republican light/corporate dem" Biden.   I think younger progressives would show up for old man Joe if there was a young progressive waiting in the wings to succeed him.   That was one of Hillary's various missteps in picking a boring old man whitey to be her running mate.   

Speaking of Biden, when I saw him on his book tour a year ago, he name dropped Barrack Obama about every 60 seconds.  Assuming he does run, he is going to milk Obama nostalgia for everything he can get out of it. 

>>>>he is going to milk Obama nostalgia for everything he can get out of it. 

What exactly can he get out of that? 

Dictionary result for neoliberal

/ˌnēōˈlibərəl/

adjective

1. 

relating to or denoting a modified form of liberalism tending to favor free-market capitalism.

noun

Neoliberalism, ideology and policy model that emphasizes the value of free market competition. ... Both have their ideological roots in the classical liberalism of the 19th century, which championed economic laissez-faire and the freedom (or liberty) of individuals against the excessive power of government.

Neoliberalism supports fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, privatization, and greatly reduced government spending.

Most recently, neoliberalism has been famously—or perhaps infamously—associated with the economic policies of Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States.

You think I’m ignorant because I knew Bernie had no hopes last time? Give me a break. As a result of the super delegate system, he never could have won. You can yell and scream that I’m wrong, but I’m not.

I’m as liberal as anyone here, but I’m also a realist.

If Biden no longer represents the majority views, then why is he polling ahead of  Bernie? https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democrat...

Hubris is dangerous. If you all really want Bernie to get the nomination, you should look long and hard at why Biden is ahead in the polls, and do something to change perception.

When an "old white guy" says he's a socialists...

Old white people hear communist.

bk = mikew

The left looks at the how the right has moved the conversation by being dogmatic and wants to replicate that, but there is a reason why the right can get away with that.

The reality of American political life is that 40% of people say they are conservative and 20% say they are liberal. That has held steady going back to 1996 with only minor variations. That means in any given election Republicans only need to attract 10% of independents while liberals have to attract 30% of independents.

It isn’t even close to a level playing field. Liberal politicians have to walk a tight rope of not pissing off their much smaller base while attracting enough moderates and independents to put them over the top. Republicans rarely if ever get punished for being too conservative by their base, and can usually attract a small part of the independents to make them competitive in most races.

That has left us where we are today with two choices - a radicalized “conservative” party and a moderate/conservative party. The only way to change anything is to convince the self identifying conservatives that the new Republican party doesn’t represent them anymore.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123854/conservatives-maintain-edge-top-ideolo...

The "norm" up till now has been, Dems fall in love, Repugs fall in line.

The homeowners will continue to beat the renters. 

>>The homeowners will continue to beat the renters. 

The renters will continue to support the homeowners in order to keep their guns, keep immigrants out, allow cops to shoot anyone whenever they “feel” in danger, to keep democrats from killing babies, and most importantly keep anyone who doesn’t look like them from getting government handouts.

So, the facts are that the majority of the population isn’t that progressive, and Bernie isn’t the most popular Democrat.

I know that’s not what some of you want to believe, but those are the facts. You can shoot the messenger all you want, it doesn’t change anything.

Again, how is Bernie going overcome this? A bunch of dudes acting like brainwashed thugs sure as hell won’t get you there. 

What are moderates running on? 

who are the thugs?

what have they done to you?

You’re doing it again, Turts.

>>>How is Bernie going to overcome this?

If Biden jumps in (all indications he will), he will likely be the nominee.  If he doesn't, my money is on Bernie because he is the only one of the bunch with serious name recognition, dedicated fan base, money, and organization.   It's such a crowded field that he can win state after state with a modrest plurality just like Trump did in the GOP primary in 2016.

If Biden doesn't run and Bernie gets the nomination, the general election could be a nail biter.  Although the polling back in 2016 showed Bernie easily whooping Trump, things may be a little different this time.  As loathsome as Trump is, the economy is still strong and for the first time in many years, the United States is not bogged down in an unpopular major ground war.  Unless the economy tanks or the US gets involved in a messy war in Venezuela, many moderate Americans will likely go with a continuation of the Trump circus than roll the dice with an angry old socialist like Bernie.   Wish it wasn't so, but that's my prediction as of 3/6/19.

Would Thom vote for Biden?

What will the moderates do when California nominates sanderS?

I don't have a horse in this race I honestly don't care. Americans put way to much importance on Presidents when they are only one third of the power. 

But I'm curios why you think Sanders will win in CA when Kamala will be on the ballot, and in the last Presidential primary CA voted for Hillary over Sanders? 

i honestly don't know el nino....

also, yes. we put too much value on the office of president.

Americans put way to much importance on Presidents when they are only one third of the power.>>>

Add in executive privilege and an abnormal over abuse of other presidential powers(in trumps case) you have a much greater percentage than 1/3. Not to mention Ginsberg.

But I'm curios why you think Sanders will win in CA when Kamala will be on the ballot>>

he won't

I thought i heard Biden was.

 

I thought i heard Biden was.

Que?

If Biden jumps in>>

I thought i heard Biden was.

knotseau, the moderates in other states would like us to vote for the status quo.

I sure as hell am not telling you who to vote for. I am asking how Bernie intends to attract the moderate voters he will need to win.

I hope you understand that he will need their support. Do you have ideas?

That would be Trump. 

If they don't offer alternative policy, they're trying to run on Trump policy continuing. 

>​the moderates in other states would like us to vote for the status quo<

the question is who will people in Florida, Ohio, Michigan,  Pennsylvania, and Iowa vote for?

The Democrats will win California in the general, no matter who gets the nomination. 

If there is a lot of new progressives pushing for good shit, why does it have to be Bernie?

Y'all act like he's the fuck'n savior re-born.

>>>>the question is who will people in Florida, Ohio, Michigan,  Pennsylvania, and Iowa vote for?

A sexist racist xenophobe? 

So, any of the 12 other Dems would be a continuation of Trump?

>I hope you understand that he will need their support. Do you have ideas?<

how about the DNC doesn't undermine him?

that's my idea.

but whatever. the dems had their chance.

they ran their corporate war hawk, and this is what we got. they have NOBODY to blame except themselves.

#soldout.

Beto vs Bernie

Whats a better look for the future?

Two types of dems are really pissing me off.  One are the people who claim that anyone to the left of them is an extremist and thus they dismiss anything they have to say, even though we all benefit from the discussion and evolution of ideas.  They don't realize that they are playing into the GOP narrative and are a large part of why the democratic party was neutralized and ineffective for years and also why the dems lost the last election.  The other is the lefty purists who won't vote for anyone who has ever taken a position that they don't agree with, unless it is Bernie or Tulsi Gabbard and if Bernie doesn't get the nomination it is proof that the system is rigged and everyone else is just horrible so they might as well vote for Jill Stein.  

I'm a pragmatic radical.  Capitalism, at least the way we have it now, is not sustainable. Fuck self driving cars.  I'm willing to pay taxes for benefits that take care of my neighbors and myself.  I'm all for universal health care in whatever form and it REALLY needs to be separated from our jobs.  Tax the extra fuck out of the rich, and NO, I don't think creating a foundation that you run how you want is a substitute for paying taxes.  Wars are stupid (but we need to stop kissing S.A.'s have, Jesus people, have some standards). We need more police accountability and fewer wars. I am OK with adjusting our immigration numbers to protect the native uneducated manual laborers, but we have to have a fair, non-hysterical, border process and welcoming refugees is part of what makes America great. Running the country for the benefit or corporations is trickle down economics no matter which party does it.  $15 min wage.

I'll probably vote for Bernie, but I have doubts that he can win the general.  2016 was his year. I have doubts about Biden too.  They may be front runners, but  we don't know how things will play out.  Who foresaw what happened with Bernie last election and whether someone else can capture the imagination of the people?  How much of Bernie's success was a result of Russia's intense anti-Hillary campaign?  How will he do in a more crowded field?  Who really thinks that Biden has never gotten handsy?  Have we still not come up with any new ideas since Obama?  Who is going to turn into a much better candidate than we realized and surprise us all?  I'm not digging in, I am letting it play out. I can tell you this though, that no matter who gets the nomination,IT'S BETTER HAVING A BARELY LITERATE WHITE SUPREMACIST IN THE WHITE HOUSE.  Even Gillibrand or Gabbard.

I am happy that CA finally gets to vote early in the process so that our more progressive voice can be heard.  Unfortunately, instead of someone really progressive I think Kamala Harris will take CA easily.  I have beef with her, but not as much as with some people. She's going to be a tough candidate.

I want to learn more about Sherrod Brown, but he probably won't run if Biden does.

I don’t think the Democrats need to run a moderate to win against Trump. The next two years are just going to be a tsunami of bad news that even Fox News won’t be able to ignore. You see his approval rating starting to dip again after Cohen and the N Korea debacle. Lower tax refunds, increased debt, larger trade deficit, and the inevitable coming recession will make him unelectable.

If you look at the total votes casts for Dems and Repubs in the midterms and apply that to the Electoral College the dems win easily in 2020. So 2020 would be the year to go strong left, but it won’t matter unless you vote in a strong left Congress, and that will never happen as long as the small population states have as much power as the large population states. Right now the Democrats are united against Trump but once he is gone you will start to see the fracture. As much as Fox News wants you to think AOC and Omar run the Democratic party, the real story is all the moderate women Democrats who won in purple suburban districts. They aren’t going to vote for single payer, or the Green New Deal.

Florida voter rolls will include many disenfranchised felons an just got their right to vote back. I believe this will have a huge impact on voting in this state. 1.5 million new voters who will be motivated to vote for the 1st time in a long time

https://youtu.be/zFDAXC0QEPY

Thanks, botb - you make total sense and I feel the same ways. Nice to read what you wrote.

YAy, fellons.

lol. thod is such a tool.

bk keeps linking realpolitics polls like they mean something. lol. 

keep linking man! lol. fool. 

Yeah, all that matters is what you think, right?

Back to my points: we all agree that the Super Delegate system was fucked, correct? As a result, it strongly favored a party-line Democrat over an Independent. Actually, it almost mandated that.

We also agree that the 2 party system is a problem.

So, why did Bernie jump in to a race that he couldn’t win, rather than going as an Independent?

You seem to know it all, enough to call others stupid and fools, so how about a real answer?

And again, my other question: Bernie will need the support of moderates to have a chance. How do you suggest he gets it? 

I highly doubt that some Bernie Bro calling people names on a dbmb will help.

What I get from you, Pyramid, is that you want to say “fuck you” to the system, and you think that Bernie is the man to do that. Fine, but most Americans really are more moderate and don’t want to say fuck you.

Perhaps we need to remember "it's the economy stupid". Blue Collar voters have proven they will not support Corporate Dems on Social issues that leave them behind in the economy. Progressives have shown the same. The rank and file of this party must nominate a real progressive, or risk 4 more years. The economy is the number one social issue. The truth is a Corporate Dem President will be four more years of a status quo. What did Obama get done when he had both houses? Not much. The first thing he did was kick single payer to the curb. The rich got richer, the poor...poorer. Oh and Bernie ran as a Dem cause he needed the publicity and face time. He was smart.

What did Obama get done when he had both houses? Not much.>>>

FILLIBUSTER.

Why because the GOP broke records for filibusters during Obamas terms.

I agree with you, Corn, that the Dems need the blue collar vote to win. I’m not sure, though, that they will only view for a progressive Dem. A shit ton of them voted for Trump, who wasn’t their best friend on social or economic issues.

>What did Obama get done<

Justice Sonia Sotomayor 

 Justice Elena Kagan

why did hrc run? everybody was screaming for new life 3 years ago. 

just like now. even more so. 

let’s just hope biden doesn’t announce. 

and bk you’re so predictable man. i’m the only one calling names. ok. thank you. 

gotta go, peace. 

>What did Obama get done<

The day Obama took office, the Dow closed at 7,949 points. Eight years later, the Dow had almost tripled.

General Motors and Chrysler were on the brink of bankruptcy, with Ford not far behind, and their failure, along with their supply chains, would have meant the loss of millions of jobs. Obama pushed through a controversial, $8o billion bailout to save the car industry. The U.S. car industry survived, started making money again, and the entire $80 billion was paid back, with interest.

While we remain vulnerable to lone-wolf attacks, no foreign terrorist organization has successfully executed a mass attack here since 9/11.

Obama ordered the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden.

He drew down the number of troops from 180,000 in Iraq and Afghanistan to just 15,000, and increased funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs.

He launched a program called Opening Doors which, since 2010, has led to a 47 percent decline in the number of homeless veterans.

He set a record 73 straight months of private-sector job growth.

Due to Obama’s regulatory policies, greenhouse gas emissions decreased by 12%, production of renewable energy more than doubled, and our dependence on foreign oil was cut in half.

He signed The Lilly Ledbetter Act, making it easier for women to sue employers for unequal pay.

His Omnibus Public Lands Management Act designated more than 2 million acres as wilderness, creating thousands of miles of trails and protecting over 1,000 miles of rivers.

He reduced the federal deficit from 9.8 percent of GDP in 2009 to 3.2 percent in 2016.

For all the inadequacies of the Affordable Care Act, we seem to have forgotten that, before the ACA, you could be denied coverage for a pre-existing condition and kids could not stay on their parents’ policies up to age 26.

Obama approved a $14.5 billion system to rebuild the levees in New Orleans.

All this, even as our own Mitch McConnell famously asserted that his singular mission would be to block anything President Obama tried to do.

While Obama failed on his campaign pledge to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay, that prison’s population decreased from 242 to around 50.

He expanded funding for embryonic stem cell research, supporting groundbreaking advancement in areas like spinal injury treatment and cancer.

Credit card companies can no longer charge hidden fees or raise interest rates without advance notice.

Most years, Obama threw a 4th of July party for military families. He held babies, played games with children, served barbecue, and led the singing of “Happy Birthday” to his daughter Malia, who was born on July 4.

Welfare spending is down: for every 100 poor families, just 24 receive cash assistance, compared with 64 in 1996.

Obama comforted families and communities following more than a dozen mass shootings. After Sandy Hook, he said, “The majority of those who died today were children, beautiful little kids between the ages of 5 and 10 years old.”

Yet, he never took away anyone’s guns.

He sang Amazing Grace, spontaneously, at the altar.

He was the first president since Eisenhower to serve two terms without personal or political scandal.

The name calling is about all you have. Do you have anything substantive to add, or are you going to keep fluffing Bernie for the next 20  months? 

Honestly, I ask you valid questions and you have absolutely no answers.

No offense, anyone, but I think questioning why Bernie ran in 2020 is kind of a silly thing to do. Bernie single-handedly, without even winning the election, managed to change the entire rhetoric of the entire country. Bernie pushed the entire democratic platform, introducing real issues with real solutions. Even if he lost, he won. The ideas everyone claimed were radical and weird are now part of the mandatory candidate speech. Bernie managed to rescue the democratic party from the hands of the corporate overlords (or at least rescue the heart of the party) and reintroduce actual ideas that benefit the people. If Bernie hadn't run there probably wouldn't be any AOC or any of the other progressive candidates in office right now. Like somebody else said above, the two party system is broken and corrupt. Who gives a shit that someone played the rules in a way that would actually allow the people to have a voice in politics. I say, fuck yeah, Bernie. Keep running, keep pushing. Never let 'em get comfortable in their corporate funded summer mansions. If that means Trump wins again, so be it. The USA needs to break out of the two-party mold, the sooner the better. That's never going to happen by just listening to comfortable speeches from the oil and coal paid for Senators and what not. Push it till it pops. Real change must happen. Not only the US, but how the US goes, the world follows...

It’s not a silly question at all, Javs. If his goal was to change the dialogue, fine, just call it that and move on. If his goal was to win, I very much question that. He had zero chance and he knew it. I don’t think it’s right to do what he did, to either his nationwide followers or his constituents in Vermont.

And how exactly does one topple the two party system by running as one of those parties? 

because he knew the best chance to make a difference was to change the party dynamic.

let's face it, ONLY a dem or repub would win.

he knew it.

he changed hillary's tune quite a bit.

don't worry, there will be some safe honky for you to vote for bk...

change doesn't happen by doing the same fucking thing.

Fuck, you really do see him as some sort of savior, don’t you?

You have no idea who I have voted for in the past or I will vote for in the future. Well, other than I didn’t vote for Bernie last time around.

 I’ve checked the guy’s name on every ballot since 1988, except for that one, so you really don’t get to play holier-than-thou about it. 

... 

>, you really do see him as some sort of savior, don’t you?<

no, just one of the only independent voices in congress.

1st time in my adult life i heard some politician say with conviction, the right things.

its fine, i am used to losing elections. nothing new...

do you have an al gore poster?

Lol, not a fan of Gore

I feel you. I’m also used to losing presidential elections, even the ones that Obama won. He was a bit too conservative for me.

This time around I’m going for the best chance to save the Supreme Court  RBG won’t make it through another Trump term, and tbere’s scuttlebut that Thomas may retire, allowing Trump to make 4 appointments that will fuck all of us for the next 30 years.

I’m looking at the bigger picture on this one.

i get it dude.

You should move to Vermont. All our national politicians are as far left as Bernie. Even our republican governor is to the left of Hinkenlooper.

no thanks, i'm fine being poor next to the ocean.

El Niño,

You make my point... He got nothing done on income inequality. It's about the blue collar work force, and none of the Corpoatecrats are going to address the issue. Yet I'm sure you blame those who are struggling to make ends meet for Hillary's loss for refusing to support her elitism.

Oh man, I wrote this post and it disappeared.  Again:  I don't think "if Trump wins so be it" furthers the cause of getting rid of the two party system.  If anything, it would empower the "moderates" who would blame the progressive who lost.  In the meantime, the dangerous wing of the GOP would secure it's hold on that party even more.   Yes, a progressive or a moderate might win or lose and there could be fallout, but my goal is not "fix politics in the democratic party".  Or "let's do something to break the country so that maybe something good will come out of it". It's to help the country by avoiding another term of racist fuck-tardery.  I know people who have suffered real life consequences due to Trump's presidency, and even if he does lose in 2020 there will be long term consequences that can't be undone.  Another term would be a disaster and then by the time the "new party of the future" succeeds, I'll probably be dead, or dying from not having health care, or broke ass because my SS is gone or some shit. This isn't a game or an opportunity to learn a lesson, this is real life for millions of people. Yes, I think that Bernie has single-handedly revitalized the democratic party and democrats should thank him every damn day.  My own personal approach to the primary is to vote for who I like, which will likely be Bernie, but the field is so big that it's possible that someone else will win my heart.  I understand the argument for voting strategically to place the most likely winner on the ticket, but I think that can backfire and it's just hard to do with a field this big.   And I think its important to have a true referendum on ideas and and candidates.  Because any of them are better than Trump and can beat him if we don't all turn on each other like we did in 2016.  

...

>>>   Yet I'm sure you blame those who are struggling to make ends meet for Hillary's loss for refusing to support her elitism.

How did voting for Trump, Johnson, or Stein help "make ends meet"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_Michigan

Donald Trump 2,279,543 47.50%

Hillary Clinton 2,268,839 47.27%

Gary Johnson 172,136  3.59%

Jill Stein 51,463 1.07%

BOTB for PREZ!

>>>>>>How did voting for Trump, Johnson, or Stein help "make ends meet"?

I got a raise. 

BK, I may have been a bit hyperbolic with the whole 'toppling' business, but on the other hand, many of the wheels that Bernie set in motion in the first candidacy could spell death for the democratic party as it exists now, much in the same way that the introduction of Trump into the republican party may also spell the death of that party as it exists now, all this by creating groups that represent a broader spectrum of ideas. So, when you think about the viruses that Bernie has injected into the deceased corpse of the democratic party, they include:

1) Reintroducing / re-normalizing a harder line leftist stance that actually represents the interests of the overwhelming majority of the populace, rather than policies that just favor the corporate bought crowd. This alone has the power to eventually create factions within the party that could eventually create smaller parties and that's not necessarily a bad thing. 

2) The financing strategy that Bernie used is, as far as I know, totally unique in US history, maybe world history, at least on the presidential level. That 100% of a politicians financing could come from maximum $2,500 dollar donations (am I remembering that number right?) is just mind-blowing and also a huge warning sign to the conventional political establishment. If you can get taken seriously with large quantities of individual donations versus small quantities of corporate donations, then there might actually be a fighting chance for more independent politicians to get elected into all sorts of offices. Bernie showed that it can be done and that's a huge signal to others. This trend has only just started gathering steam and is a strategy that is as viable for the right as for the left. 

So yeah, I think Bernie wasn't necessarily in it for one thing or another, but rather the whole package. When push came to shove he put his support behind Hillary, basically redirecting massive amounts of voters towards her. He did the right thing, but before doing it he managed to radically alter the course of the party for who knows how long.

I appreciate what you’re saying, Java, and agree with the vast majority of it. Bernie single-handedly changed the Democratic Party and the dialogue. I just don’t agree with how he did it. I think that it was duplicitous. Maybe it was for the greater good though.

My big problem is the 2 party system, which is broken to shit. This country is too big and diverse to be represented by only 2 parties. Also, I really do believe that this crazy party loyalty that’s going on is the real Constitutional crisis. It’s too dogmatic. Both Bernie and Trump could have and should have run as Independents. That’s what the system needs.

There’s irony to a lot of the discussion in this thread. Although I’m being portrayed as a Party loyalist, I’m far from that. I’ve voted for Bernie as an Independent, and it pissed me off that he jumped into the DNC shithole. That’s not who he is or has ever been. 

>>>You have no idea who I have voted for in the past >>>>

I do. You have told us 1,00000000 times

so you’re not a party loyalist but your pissed bernie is running/ran as a dem for pres? 

you’ve voted for the guy for the past 30 years, obama was too conservative for you, but bernie won’t cut it as pres? 

your questions aren’t valid. dude you’re asking why bernie ran as a dem in 2016 and now for 2020? why did he enter a race that he knew he couldn’t win? wtf. have you been paying attention at all these last 3 years (or bernie’s past 30+?) jesus. 

thank you javs for breaking it down for Bk. lol. 

"Moderate" Sherrod Brown announced he is not running.  Anticipate a big announcement from Biden any time now.

You’re pretty dense, Pyramid. I’ve said all along that I think Sanders would be a shitty president, whether I or D. Disagree all you want. It’s just opinion. Yours sure as hell isn’t more right than mine. 

My questions are absolutely valid. You don’t like them. So what. You’re friggin’ ridiculous, all bluster and no substance.

Here’s a valid question that I’ve asked you a few times: how is Bernie  going to get the much needed votes of the moderates? He won’t have a chance without them.

BK, I hear what you're saying that in a sense it could be considered duplicitous but on the other hand, when you're dealing with a corrupt and broken system, can anything truly be considered duplicitous? I mean, Bernie didn't break any rules, as far as I remember. He was never deceitful about his intentions, either (IMO). If he had won, he would have carried on with his platform as  stated, and by losing he managed to bring the dialogue over to his side of the table. I don't think he was in it for one or the other. There was a real chance that Bernie could win and a lot of questions as to how exactly Hillary won the nomination. Maybe rigged is not the right word, but if it was pinball she was playing, the machine would've beeped. So, who knows what could happen on a level playing field? And one could even argue that the only way for Bernie to actually stop the two party system is to splinter the democratic party into factions that could become alternate parties. The same thing is close to happening with the republican party as people start moving away from Trump or doubling down with him, but all in all I think they have more cohesion than the democrats. 

As for crazy party loyalty, sometimes in the more paranoid parts of my fantasy world I wonder if it's just precisely planned and controlled to keep it that way. Hell, everyone knows that Pepsi and Coke are good for each other, it's a studied fact. By having one clear competitor, the 'stock' of both products improves. By having a two-party system you ensure that people are always taking sides and treating politics as a sports match, rather than participating in a collective effort to create a civilized society. By having more parties you have a broader spectrum, but ultimately, if you have a presidential system than the power still ends up concentrated on one side. Here in Chile we have tons of parties, and because of the presidential system they all just form a left-wing coalition and a right-wing coalition which have been pretty much set in stone for...ever? So I'm a fan of the parliamentary system over a presidential one.

The real problem, IMO, is the representative democracy system, which in the digital age is totally obsolete. There is no reason we need representatives to govern us. We need high-quality educational platforms on the internet, radio and television informing viewers about the details of laws and legal projects while presenting the arguments in favor and against, and then followed up by an on-line voting system. I imagine that Ministries or Departments would still be necessary to create laws and projects that could then be voted on by the populace, but those Departments would have to be staffed by some kind of system that recognized experience in the given field and a broad variety of viewpoints. Another very real problem is campaign financing. You'll never find honest politicians until you take the money out of the equation.

i’m just trying to follow your dumb ass logic. dense? you’re the one pissed at bernie for running dem, you needed that explained to you lol. glad you understand what his 2016 run did for the country, even tho he had no chance of winning (as you so expertly state)......seems like quite the massive positive effect he’s had, especially on your neoliberal candidates as they know the people don’t want the status quo any longer. 

how will he get the moderate vote?  gonna be difficult to get people like you to vote for the only person running to represent us (funny how that works, huh) he’s got plenty of time this run, speaking truth to power, still very difficult, of course. his grassroots campaign is unmatched, his team being able to raise that amount for money in such a short time shows people are engaged and ready to support bernie. 

he supports the new green deal, healthcare for all, taxing the mega rich, making corporations pay their taxes, lol, sweeping criminal justice reform — all topics people now support whether conservative or dem. 

there’s one candidate that represents us. if you don’t think he’s qualified, fine. but you asking why he ran as a dem and why he ran knowing he would lose (lol that’s just awesome bk. wow), i mean, that’s fucking dense man. 

Yawn...

Fucktardo Montalbán and Tattoo love Bernie, we get it.

the yawn is voting for corporate dems.

guys try not to fuck this up this time. remember, donald trump, lol, already beat your corporate dem candidate, sad shit.

lol thod. 

P-heat, cool it with the lol's. They make you sound demented like Hambone. 

>>>>>>guys try not to fuck this up this time. remember, donald trump, lol, already beat your corporate dem candidate, sad shit.

Yeah and the corporate dem candidate beat Bernie Sanders.

Just saying.

>If that means Trump wins again, so be it<

If Trump wins again we will have a 6-3 conservative majority on the supreme court. Heck, Thomas may even see it as an opportunity to retire so a younger conservative can be appointed. In addition, countless conservative judges will be added to the appellate courts. 

Hubris...

Believe all you want that he had a chance in 2016. Also believe that the majority of Americans want something as radically different than you think they do. 

And still no strategy on how to get the moderate vote? Maybe you think that they aren’t needed?

Hubris...

On-line voting system?  Government by home-study?

Do you realize that we are already in a bit of a crisis over whether electronic voting machines that don't have a paper trail have been tampered with?  And you want to take this totally on line?  Why don't you just double down and put facebook in charge of it?

And how will this educational programming that we are all to receive in order to allow us to govern thoughtfully work?  What if I don't want to watch?  Who gets to decide what the "official version" of educational programming is?  Do we have a vote on what the facts are first?  Is Breitbart in charge of this, CNN, or the White House Facts Network, not the be confused with McConnellTV and PelosiVision.  We have enough trouble getting Americans to focus every two years, and I am pretty sure that we aren't even voting for the same set of candidates, depending on what crackpot internet news you read. Ain't no one got time for informed home study elections every month. Jav, it sounds like Chile is a marvelous and civilized place, but you have NO IDEA what a mess it is here right now.

Thanks botb, you summed it up well.

He sounded so all over the map, I didn't even want to mess with that one.

JAV's you vote absentee?

I'm trying to imagine myself, with a good education and an interest in current events, trying to sort out the nitty gritty details necessary an informed vote on obscure banking legislation.  Can I just entrust Eliz. Warren to sort that out for me?

Wait, am i Fucktardo Montalbán? Or Tattoo? Or neither? I'm confused. Montalbán did wear some pretty awesome duds, so I'm ok with that. As for Tattoo, you know that motherfucker was partying like a rock star all the time, so sure, why not.

I don't know if anyone noticed but my post didn't insult anyone. I try to do this thing called civilized discourse without attacking the messenger. I know, I know, our primate programming is deep wired and you feel the urge to defend your intellectual territory by hurling turds at other people. It's ok, the insulters on here are just a part of the overwhelming majority of humanity who haven't received a quality education and haven't bothered to educate themselves so as to be able to speak intelligently without insults, and to process contrary positions without feeling the primate need to defend their turf.

I guess that's why I don't really post on the zone all that much anymore, and definitely don't converse with anyone who thinks that by insulting or trolling they can win an argument. 

So, carry on...

If I am Montalbán, is that because I´m Latin American? Is that racist? Do I get to manage an island where I get to makes peoples' fantasies come true?

I'm so confused...

Damn, Java, I for one appreciated a real exchange of ideas. It brought me back to different times.

And just to be clear: it is 100% impossible for the US to be a mess and for that to not affect all of your subordinate nations like Chile. You think when Trump plays russian roulette with Chinese tariffs and goods, that that doesn't affect our economy? Or that when he normalizes a far-right rhetoric that politicians in other countries don't follow his lead? Chile is a great place. But we are facing our own little version of the same issues, don't you doubt it.

"Damn, Java, I for one appreciated a real exchange of ideas. It brought me back to different times."

BK, you and I have never had a problem communicating with each other. I really appreciate that as well. :)

Jav's you're taking pyramid's heat...

Relax.

javs gives his opinion and thod responds with a racist insult.

pepsi or coke?

I’m having a very hard time with the, “If you disagree with me you are stupid and a lesser person,” attitude.

You ask questions and try to engage in reasonable debate, and it’s impossible.

And that’s just about where this country is at.

I’m going to throw this out there: if a moderate Republican jumps in the race, the Progressive left is going to have an even harder job. I can see plenty of people registering as Republicans so they can vote against Trump in the primary, and the more moderate ones very well may vote for that candidate in the general election. 

Nice deflection Tattoo, I was talking about all the Bernie dry humping you and your boy pyramid have been doing,

but go ahead and make it about race. It's interesting you bring up race because your boy Bernie seems to have a

lil problem with POC votes.

Now hump away.

"And that’s just about where this country is at."

That's what I mean about the deliberateness of a two-party system. (Western) humans tend to think in terms of polarities and then chose a side and define it as their (primate) territory. That's why people get all worked up and that's what makes it so much easier for politicians to mobilize their base. If you have a clear 'enemy' then it's easy to stand in opposition to them. It's much harder to debate ideas without party affiliation, just ideas, and to hear and listen to everyone's opinion. Humans are just a bridge between the ape and the übermensch. I guess which way you face on the bridge is the direction you walk in. If we had a political system that encouraged civil discussions and inclusion of an ample variety of interested parties, than the people would quickly realize that the politicians are more of a roadblock than an asset towards creating a positive society. And then, the powers that be wouldn't be able to continue getting their fat ass paychecks and incentives from their corporations to keep on ruling for the rich, by the rich and of the rich. 

Just today I started talking to the section assistant where I work, and I said something about the broadening of the distribution of wealth as a result of neo-liberal economic policies and the first thing she said was "Are you a communist? Because if we are, we can't talk". 

>>>>seems to have a lil problem with POC votes.

Who doesn't? 

tattoo?

what are you trying to disparage me regarding?

you mad bro?

Nah dude, you wanna carry Bernie's water this early in the season, have at it.

Just think your living on Fantasy Island, dig?

Jav, are you saying that you take personal insult when someone disagrees with your idea about on-line voting?  If so, I feel bad for your fragile psyche.  Hopefully you were referring to someone else actually insulting you.

Of course our policies and politics effect the whole world, but that's sort of the end result, and not the dynamics of the day to day mess.  You proposed that we receive government certified home study about all the issues congress votes on and then just merrily go on line (every month?  every day?) and click our way to an informed and prosperous future on our google-machines that our retired population has totally safeguarded from malware.  And that somehow we don't have street wars over it. Knowing how media is being delivered and received and the crazy shit some people actually believe and watching the day to day shit storm that is our news and the reactions to it, following the ever-changing temperaments of various regions, and interests groups, as well as the daily revelations about the lack of security of all our electronic systems including voting machines, I can't help but assume that you do not spend your day wallowing in the minutia of American life and talking to actual family members who believe that half of America is under Sharia Law and that it was Michelle Obama who prohibited prayer in schools and that Trump was sent specifically by God to lead this nation and that by putting the embassy in Jerusalem he brought is a little closer to rapture.  And that the New York Times is the Enemy of the People and the State, both.  

Do you know that the country is already back-pedaling from electronic voting machines because of possible tampering?  Maybe you follow this, but otherwise I assume you get the summarized version of "Shit from America today and how it will effect Chile" along with the stuff you and your friends read and talk about and whatever your own Chilean crazy crap versions of all this shit are.  Anyway, if you knew all that and still think that's a good serious suggestion that we we governed by on-line voting supported by government certified home study education, then I assume you also believe in Qanon.

>>>I can see plenty of people registering as Republicans so they can vote against Trump in the primary

I would totally do that.

The current field of Democrats is pretty diverse: Black, Latino, Hindu, gay, spiritual author, business, half female. The age range and backgrounds are also diverse.

Is the 78 year old white guy, who has been in Congress for 25 years, really the only outsider (if that’s really what one is looking for)?

BTW, Jav, I would love to hear more about whatever crazy shit you have going on in Chile and South America at large.  Because the whole world is nuts.  Are the fascists making a comeback? Pinoche t-shirts are gaining in popularity here.  What crazy shit do grandparents believe?  What even crazier shit does your cousin in tech believe?  Where is god in all this?   Please distract us from our own vivisection by telling us how nuts it is down there.

Lots of cringe in this thread.

Great add per usual Cucky

>>>really the only outsider (if that’s really what one is looking for)?

He's the only guy you can reliably trust to follow through with the ideas that he has proposed and not get co-opted.  Even though I agree demographics are big weakness for him campaigning, at least with Bernie you know he's not wearing a progressive skin-suit that he'll shed as soon as the election is over.  I would almost trust a straight up moderate over someone who claims they just drank the kool-aid and got converted.  Now, to be true, people do evolve and see the light.  But at the very least with Bernie you know what you see if what you get.

Intelligent as ever, Thod. Good work in here.

>> Beto vs Bernie
>> Whats a better look for the future?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/20/beto-orourke-congression...

>>> Intelligent as ever, Thod. Good work in here. <<<

And now you're here...lol

Alias, reading comprehension is difficult. Could you please point out to me where I said I felt insulted? I made a post, shortly thereafter T.O.D. said something about Fantasy Island which, by order of placement seemed to be directed at me, and I then mentioned that despite the racist overtones, I would have no problem being Mr. Rourke or Tattoo, really. Then, I said I'm not really keen on talking about anything with people who are only capable of levelling insults to make their point, like by saying that someone may have a fragile psyche because they either didn't read carefully or just flat out misunderstood what was written. No, I don't get offended easily at all, and far less by people on the internet who I don't know. I just don't enjoy talking with people who can't make solid arguments for or against a point. I honestly don't care what somebody's view point is, just so long as we can discuss it in a respectful and kind way. Know what I mean?

And geez, Alias. You seem pretty emotional about these topics. The direct democracy idea is kind of unrelated to this thread, I just threw it in as a side thought. I think I may have even started a thread once a year ago or so, but I can't remember. It's my personal conclusion that direct democracy is inevitable in the course of the next 100 years or so, since representative democracy has already revealed its flaws, and for the most part, those flaws cannot be fixed until you take egos out of the power equation. Further, the representative democracy system was only a response to the needs of the times, responding to the fact that the majority of the population was rural and had no way of going to the capital to participate directly in the democratic process. Are there issues, major issues that would need to be resolved? Of course. Are those issues deeper or any worse than the flaws of paper ballots were in the beginning (and still today to some extent)? No, I personally don't think so. As for the education initiative, it has nothing to do with government mandate and everything to do with individual responsibility. If you choose to relinquish that responsiblity, then so be it. But again, yeah, there's tons of issues that come up, but hey man: Why you taking it so seriously? You mad, bro? ;) It's just ideas. If we were together in person we would discuss them over a bowl and a beer and get some laughs out of it in the process. Let's not let a screen make that any different...

Both of you, BOTB and Java, are actually sharing ideas. I’m down with that. It sure as hell beats those who add nothing and put others down for theirs.

Alias and javs are my buddies

The Democrats need to take back the Senate if we’re to see change. All this talk about 2020 presidential candidates  doesn’t address the fact that we (liberals, progressives and moderates) can’t forward our agenda - and reverse the horrific Trump era policies without picking up more seats in the Senate. those rotten federal judges the GOP senate is rushing through have fucked us all, no doubt. It needs to stop and checks and balances need to be restored. Elections have consequences, and it bears repeating THE PARTIES ARE NOT THE SAME. Not even close. 

>>>>>The direct democracy idea is kind of unrelated to this thread, I just threw it in as a side thought.

Ted Huntington calls it full democracy and has a great song about it

www.tedhuntington.com

"I don't know if anyone noticed but my post didn't insult anyone. >>>>>> It's ok, the insulters on here are just a part of the overwhelming majority of humanity who haven't received a quality education and haven't bothered to educate themselves so as to be able to speak intelligently without insults"

And then I asked if you were referring to my because I would have found that suprising.  

"Why you taking it so seriously? You mad, bro?"

Responding to your point is taking it seriously?   I was just discussing the issues, asked you for some follow up.  I thought we might have an interesting chat but the old 2002 era "who's more passive aggressive, brah" internet game isn't my favorite.  Pretty stale.  Some people say it's retro, but I don't think we're there yet.  

Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley is wonderful, dedicated to the state and the country. He was thinking about running for president in 2020 but has announced he wants to stay in the senate for another term. He is so smart to do that. He'll not only do good and right, his name recognition will be so much more widespread. He's a good guy.

Yeah and the corporate dem candidate beat Bernie Sanders.

Just saying.

<<<<<<<<<<

yup. but that primary was anything but fair. we all know the dnc tipped the scales to help hrc get pushed through. 

the new dnc chair, tom perez, even stated this himself in 2016. 

You got a link where Tom Perez made that statement/admission?

"We heard loudly and clearly yesterday from Bernie supporters that the process was rigged, and it was. And you've got to be honest about it," Perez told a group of Democratic lawmakers in Kansas, according to a report by MSNBC’s Alex Seitz-Wald.

^^ are you talking about superdelegates? That's been neutralized already, last summer.

BTW it wasn't rigged against Bernie, superdelegates have been part of the democratic primary process for 4 decades.

When's Bernie gonna publicly acknowledge the Russian disinformation campaign intended to help him and hurt Clinton?

I'm not defending Clinton, she's old news, but wouldn't you like to see Bernie own it and answer some questions about it, so we can move on?

It isn't fake news.

It’s more convenient to blame for he DNC for rigging it for Hillary than to ask Bernie why he ran in a race he could never win.

Yeah, yeah, Pyramid, I get it, I’m stupid, dumb, blah, blah. It doesn’t change the facts. He ran as a Dem to change the dialogue and system, not to win the race. He did all that, so move on.

I’m still waiting for an answer to a strategy for getting moderates to vote for Bernie. It’s not that complicated a question.

i’m just saying, the 2016 primary, hrc was pulling the shots. that’s not how it’s supposed to be. the dnc and hrc had a

deal signed in 2015 to give hrc campaign staffing and policy oversight. fact. 

And in the long run she lost, we have no idea how Bernie would have fared against Trump, and we have the biggest piece of shit ever in the White House.

Unless the more liberals, Democrats and Progressives show some decorum in the primary race, and stop the nasty infighting and rhetoric, Trump has 2020 locked up. It only benefits him.

Bernie tried hijacking the democratic ticket as an independent. Bernie wasn't a democrat so of course they were all set with the path of their democratic candidate who was hrc.

Why is that so hard to understand?

BK has asked a pretty straight up question about a half a dozen times, care to answer? can you?

I think it's good we discuss, bang out, infight whatever right now and get it out of our system, later becomes a real problem.

We got 11 months, bring everything to the table now so we can make an informed decision on real issues when the primary starts.

 Breyer is 80

Ginsburg is 84

Thomas is 70

If Trump wins again (or even a different Republican), there’s a good chance that he’ll get to make at least 2 appointments by 2024, and maybe 3.

This country will be fucked for an entire generation, if not more.

“I’m still waiting for an answer to a strategy for getting moderates to vote for Bernie. It’s not that complicated a question.”

Run him as beto’s VP. (Unlikely) I think his time has totally come and gone too, but he is invaluable as an influencer.

But in the back of my mind I don’t think Beto has the swagger to go toe to toe with trump. Cory Booker might. 

Democrats won the house and are investigating. Why all the worry about Trump in 2020?

The minority vote is a whole other story. There’s conflicting info on whether or not Bernie did well with those demographics in 2016. This time may be different because of Castro and Booker. Whoever comes out on top in the primary has to pull in the minority votes in the general. 

so you’re justifying the dnc/hrc colluding b/c bernie isn’t a dem loyalist? can you not see what he did for the dem party/country? why is that so hard to understand. and now that corporate dems have adopted some of his ideas, it’s time for bernie to move on?  there’s no trust.

also is that your guys’ got you question? if moderates hate bernie for running as a dem, like you two do, and hold it against him, not sure he can persuade you to do the right thing and support the man stumping for the new green deal, sweeping criminal justice reform, healthcare for all, education for all,  among other nationally popular policy ideas. i think he wins over a lot of moderates w/ his policy,, grassroots campaigning, not taking pac money, standing up for what he’s always spoke about; i think he wins more minority votes by talking about his social justice background. and if bernie does win the nom., adding harris or booker, really just your typical dem as vp will go a long way. also the AOC endorsement will be huge. 

 you two seem stuck on hating bernie for running as a dem., lots of people from ‘16 who were caught up on that have moved on, still many grasping for air as well still—here’s a huge difference: bernie isn’t my savior, he can fuck up and i won’t support him, i can disagree w/ his policy and criticize what he does/says. the corporate dem loyalists seem to never do that w/ the people they support. kinda like trumpers. funny huh. 

alright, now go ahead thod n bk, haha. i gotta go for the day, peace. 

“ you’re justifying the dnc/hrc colluding b/c bernie isn’t a dem loyalist?”

i‘m sensing the same 

It’s too bad that you haven’t read a word of what I’ve been writing. You’re also combining multiple issues. Hillary’s shit is totally different than the superdelegates. 

And Christ, I’m hardly a moderate. I’d like to see a viable party that represents my views.

Get it together, Pyramid. You’re all over the place. Stop, breathe and think. 

If Bernie gets the nomination, of course I’ll vote for him.

>>> “ you’re justifying the dnc/hrc colluding b/c bernie isn’t a dem loyalist?” <<<

 >>> i‘m sensing the same <<<

No, trying to beat Trump/GOP Bernie can work for Vermont.

If he gets the nomination, he gets my vote, dig?

Now will you vote for the democrat other than Bernie if he isn't the nominee?

^i already answered that last week-i said yes. 

Right, and I've never said I wouldn't vote for Bernie.

I wanna see all that's out there, so stop calling me thod and I won't call you Fucktardo Montalbán.

We clear now?

koombyya and shit...

So bk voted Sanders for 30 yrs but won't support him becoming president...

It's weird man.

also funny that people want biden, especially since the me too movement has taken ground past few years. weird. 

What’s weird, Turts? Just because I thought he was the right person to represent me in congress, I don’t think he’d be a good POTUS?

It’s pretty strange that you don’t understand that. 

Biden and Bernie both have women issues...

Mainly because they're both dinosaurs and have a loooong history to go back to in the public eye.

I know, weird.

bernie supported anti abortion policy for decades and believed woman shouldn’t control their bodies? 

How many abortions do you all think Trump has paid for? I’m going with 5-6, with at least $500k per, in hush money. If banging a porn Star was worth $135k, an abortion had to be worth that much.

What does Trump's abortions have to do with the Western Wall?

You’d have to ask Ivanka.

>>> bernie supported anti abortion policy for decades and believed woman shouldn’t control their bodies? <<<

Dude c'mon... 

Have you forgot this from Bernie's last campaign?

In the Times article, former staff members described in on-the-record interviews their experiences with sexism, including harassment and pay inequity. They portrayed the insurgent 2016 campaign as disorganized and decentralized, making it hard to report mistreatment.

Bernie Sanders Apologizes Again to Women Who Were Mistreated in 2016 Campaign

For a second time in eight days, Senator Bernie Sanders apologized to women on his 2016 presidential campaign, as he seeks to put behind him a series of damaging reports about the mistreatment of female staff members that threatens to undercut another likely White House bid.

A political housecleaning appeared underway as well in the Sanders camp: Three top advisers from the 2016 campaign either will not return if Mr. Sanders runs in 2020 or will serve in different roles, according to people close to Mr. Sanders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/10/us/politics/sanders-sexism-apology.html

How about this.

Bernie Sanders doesn’t fight for women’s reproductive justice

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/358608-bernie-sanders-doesnt-figh...

Black women, the most consistent Democratic voters, are strong supporters of reproductive justice including abortion. Support for anti-abortion Democrats not only proliferates restrictions that fall hardest on women of color but it also marginalizes this critical constituency in the very party that claims to represent us.

Black women and if you know anything about women voting is a huge vote to have and they ain't feelin' the bern.

so again, they BOTH have issues with women.

i'm fine being poor next to the ocean. <<<

Me as Well Turtle

BOTB = One Smart Cookie On The Tray

https://mobile.twitter.com/SteveKornacki/status/1101219608726593537

A new Des Moines Register/CNN/Mediacom poll released Saturday evening shows Sanders within just two points of Biden, who in December dominated the field