heard over the weekend that it's about to go down all over country in the pedophile ring, with hopes to use the minions and handlers to get at the upper echelon. wait and see.
I've been "hearing" about this for years, and while at first it seems unbelievable, I've come to realize it's very believable. There's something going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you...Mr. Jones?
> I think you are confused if you are looking at this from a partisan lens. This is happening from both sides of the aisle in all the halls of power.
So then why do we keep repeating/focusing on a politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign that has yet to be proven and almost led to the murder of innocent pizza shop employees?
>>>Pedophilia is rampant amongst the powerful on this planet. Let's go after these sick people, and lock them up.
throughout history, for eons, this has happened..... its almost an intrinsic part of being human.... all cultures, all races, all classes.... its a part of the patriarchal aspect of the 'rule in the past 5000 years....
the future is female, feminine, and matriarchal...... deal.
>> Oh and Trump going into the dressing room with naked teenagers and getting away with it because he "owns the pageant"?
You can't call him a pedophile. False equivalency.
Miss Universe and Miss USA contestants must be at least 18 and under 28 years of age before January 1st in the year they hope to compete in the Miss Universe or Miss USA pageant.
Ender, those accusations came from contestants of Miss Teen USA pageant.
While running the Miss Teen USA beauty pageant, Donald Trump reportedly walked in on contestants as they changed in their dressing room, multiple contestants told BuzzFeed on Wednesday.
The site quoted Mariah Billado, a 1997 contestant from Vermont, who recalled having to get dressed “really quickly” because Trump had entered the room. Girls were “just scrambling to grab stuff,” she added.
BuzzFeed said three other women also remembered Trump entering the changing room while the contestants ― some as young as 15 ― were in and out of their clothes. However, 11 other participants said they could not recall such intrusions.
No doubt Trump has some connections tangentially to this stuff too, but it's unlikely that the Clinton email cache contains any of his involvement.
The only potential area of overlap I could see tricky for Trump would be with his billionaire buddy Epstein from Pedophile Island, who, if you've been following along, is coming under renewed pedo accusations recently.
he is quiverfull, and so is pence, and quiverfull has been trying to affect change in the government for a while, so to deflect that as much as possible so no one truly looks into the insanity of quiverfull makes sense.
>>>this wasnt partisan until someone made it partisan.
what was the start of this thread? an ex government official to possibly be prosecuted for pedophilia.
and then i posted 2 more gov officials, weirdly enough, one democrat, and the other rep.
this was more about pedophilia in our government, then someone else decided to take it to the "politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign" thing
--------
note the comparing society v government question about pedophilia.
DCF Florida lost records on hundreds(some say thousands) of kids in their foster system in the 80's -90's, and reports from that era found connections to the child sex slave trade. trying to keep this on the pedophilia train.
>the Weiner news which had me starting the thread?
I'm fairly positive that you can follow along with were this thread went and as it was going the 'pizzagate' way did you interject and put this back on track?
I think it's you who is misinformed, Jonas, especially about the origins of this thing
There is something to "Pizzagate" as its known in the vernacular. The press was able to knock it down because the very first NYT story created a strawman by saying it was about Hillary Clinton running a pedo ring out of a pizza joint, which was a patent miscategorization of what people were looking at. Of course that wasn't the case, but everyone and their mother latched on to the slight of hand they pulled by following the strawman with "none of it was true" quoted then by everyone and their mother, hoping to sweep it under the rug.
And then we were off to the races with the "fake news" meme.
PizzaGate isn't the "thing" it's a symptom.
Weiner and pizzagate are related.
It sounds like Weiner's emails get at the bigger picture.
I hope 2017 is treating you and yours well, Jonas.
Guy -- you consistently seem to connect dots that aren't really connected. I too have thoughts and theories on news that just don't sit right with me. I will stand by my notion that this was a politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign. This is the age of the internet. A single post has already been captured and cited. I'm not buying the slight of hand of notion. You and many others give too much credit and make too many assumptions. It's like my old man telling me when I was high school that I must have been involved with the mafia because I sold weed.
We have to be realistic. Pedophilia is no more rampant with the rich than it is with the poor. I'd venture to say that more poor kids are abused, molested and pimped out by their own families than any sort of privileged patriarchal underground society. And I'm not talking about selling your kid to the local oil field owner for $200. I'm speaking to the 'for a $50 bag of meth take my 12 year old for a few hours' type of disgusting shit. Sometimes it's the messenger and not the message that fucks things up.
All good, Jonas. I fully admit to my Beautiful Mind tendencies, but I assure you, the subset of what I believe compared to the general population is miniscule.
What I'm willing to entertain as a possibility, however, is probably much much wider than the population. Fringe subjects interest me and I often play Devil's Advocate here to try and keep the discussion interesting or see if it stimulates someone else to bring something to the table I hadn't heard. You might see that as a copout, bit its 100% true. Being a careful curator of the perceptions held of this handle I use isn't really a priority for me. The odd tidbits are. Im confident in my 3d translation, so I'm not afraid to look a little nutty here.
JR! I know youre trolling me , but if you are serious, you'll find the answers to the questions you seek in Antarctica. Start with Admiral Byrd and Operation Highjump. Jonny seems to be hip.
<<<Hopefully one of these days we can bullshit over a twelve pack
I'll drink to that.
I honestly appreciate the rigor you apply to this stuff, Jonas. I know you have an open mind and are really just probing for something more solid than a Dan Brown Mystery to hang your hat on when you challenge these things.
JR, it seems as though "Disclosure" talk has been ramping up all over the place recently. I wouldn't be surprised if 2017 held some surprises. Honestly, look at Antarctica. Something seems to be brewing down there relating to our ancient history and our impending future. Many rumors circulating.
is HighJump his search for the German Base, and he lost some men and a ship i think, which i understand is documented in German history, the base that is.
and correct me if I am wrong, didn't the Argentines think that the Germans who showed up in subs after the war, came from Antarctica.
i havnt thought about that in a long time. My Latin and German(yes 4 years of both) teacher throughout high school was from German wealth, and used to talk about the Germans conquest of Antarctica prior to WW2, and this was in the late 80's. Didn't know there was a possible alien leg of the story.
i cannot think of a better place for aliens to hide out than Antarctica. I'm familiar with Operation Paperclip and Admiral Byrd's testimony of encountering an inner earth civilization- it's intriguing. Hitler and the Nazi's also had a great interest in Antarctica, and theories abound about aliens providing technology to the SS.
There has been a renewed interest in Antarctica, and some photos have emerged showing an object that is believed to be a pyramid, but it's inconclusive in my opinion.
If interested in wild speculation, check out Steve Quayle's work on the subject. However, Steve approaches the topic from a biblical perspective, and has concluded that the alien civilization down there are descendants of the fallen angels, or nephilim.
Fallen Angels / Annunaki.....all a matter of perpective.
What's interesting is watching the divergent faces of this all pointing at the same thing and not even necessarily realizing it as they focus on their own dogma.
Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Othodox Church recently bridged a thousand year Rift with the Catholic Church, speaking with the Pope in Cuba before departing directly for Antarctica to perform some undisclosed ceremony.
I know, probably just two unrelated dots, but there seems to be other evidence of an uptick in visits from world dignitaries to the icy continent. I'm sure that can be attributed to new accessibility and interest in the environment, but that doesn't seem to be the totality of the picture from what I've seen.
^ yep, i read about that, interesting. What does the catholic and orthodox church have to do in Antarctica? Baptize penguins?
John Kerry was in Antarctica on election day last November, which struck me as odd. Buzz Aldrin was down there recently as well, and there is an apparently cryptic tweet from him about us all being in danger. However, that was never verified.
>>> Buzz Aldrin was down there recently as well, and there is an apparently cryptic tweet from him about us all being in danger. However, that was never verified.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Fountain Jam
Couldn't happen to a nicer
Couldn't happen to a nicer douchebag.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
Dennis Hastert
Dennis Hastert
Barney Frank
Anthony Weiner
-----------------------
tip of a bigger iceberg?
what is the percentage of pedophilia in american society versus DC elected officials?
California alone, right now....
http://ktla.com/2017/02/01/474-arrested-28-sexually-exploited-children-r...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
ha! posted about this in the
ha! posted about this in the Symbols thread just this morning.
Speaking of Hastert......we know from WikiLeaks he and Podesta are besties.
PizzaGate isn't going away folks.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
heard over the weekend that
heard over the weekend that it's about to go down all over country in the pedophile ring, with hopes to use the minions and handlers to get at the upper echelon. wait and see.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
Turns out the 650,000 emails
Turns out the 650,000 emails marked "Life Insurance" might actually have been something.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: aiq
How about that groundhog and
How about that groundhog and his prognostication?
Oh and Trump going into the dressing room with naked teenagers and getting away with it because he "owns the pageant"?
If that is confusing consult your priest.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
I think you are confused if
I think you are confused if you are looking at this from a partisan lens. This is happening from both sides of the aisle in all the halls of power.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
Pedophilia is rampant amongst
Pedophilia is rampant amongst the powerful on this planet. Let's go after these sick people, and lock them up.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: BBGD4fun
I've been "hearing" about
I've been "hearing" about this for years, and while at first it seems unbelievable, I've come to realize it's very believable. There's something going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you...Mr. Jones?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
> I think you are confused if
> I think you are confused if you are looking at this from a partisan lens. This is happening from both sides of the aisle in all the halls of power.
So then why do we keep repeating/focusing on a politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign that has yet to be proven and almost led to the murder of innocent pizza shop employees?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: New & Improved
Hillary killed Scalia, too.
Hillary killed Scalia, too.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jon
>>>Pedophilia is rampant
>>>Pedophilia is rampant amongst the powerful on this planet. Let's go after these sick people, and lock them up.
throughout history, for eons, this has happened..... its almost an intrinsic part of being human.... all cultures, all races, all classes.... its a part of the patriarchal aspect of the 'rule in the past 5000 years....
the future is female, feminine, and matriarchal...... deal.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
I'm all for the divine
I'm all for the divine feminine.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
this wasnt partisan until
this wasnt partisan until someone made it partisan.
and the pizzagate theory isnt partisan, its pedophilia.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: charmskooldropout
I'll have a turkey sub, and
I'll have a turkey sub, and give my friend a small pepperoni
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: _
>> Oh and Trump going into
>> Oh and Trump going into the dressing room with naked teenagers and getting away with it because he "owns the pageant"?
You can't call him a pedophile. False equivalency.
Miss Universe and Miss USA contestants must be at least 18 and under 28 years of age before January 1st in the year they hope to compete in the Miss Universe or Miss USA pageant.
https://www.missuniverse.com/missusa/info/faq
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Johnny D
Proud of California for
Proud of California for rounding up these perv perps and rescuing victims.
This needs to end.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: nebulous nelly
Ender, those accusations come
Ender, those accusations came from contestants of Miss Teen USA pageant.
While running the Miss Teen USA beauty pageant, Donald Trump reportedly walked in on contestants as they changed in their dressing room, multiple contestants told BuzzFeed on Wednesday.
The site quoted Mariah Billado, a 1997 contestant from Vermont, who recalled having to get dressed “really quickly” because Trump had entered the room. Girls were “just scrambling to grab stuff,” she added.
BuzzFeed said three other women also remembered Trump entering the changing room while the contestants ― some as young as 15 ― were in and out of their clothes. However, 11 other participants said they could not recall such intrusions.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57fe2cd3e4b0d505a46b1725
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Hitchhiker awaiting "true call"
What did the parents do about
What did the parents do about it?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
No doubt Trump has some
No doubt Trump has some connections tangentially to this stuff too, but it's unlikely that the Clinton email cache contains any of his involvement.
The only potential area of overlap I could see tricky for Trump would be with his billionaire buddy Epstein from Pedophile Island, who, if you've been following along, is coming under renewed pedo accusations recently.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Fly
Weiner is gross. especially
Weiner is gross. especially if this latest info is true.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: ParadiseWaits
The right was quick to
The right was quick to forgive incest pedo Josh Duggar
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
>to forgive incest pedo Josh
>to forgive incest pedo Josh Duggar
he is quiverfull, and so is pence, and quiverfull has been trying to affect change in the government for a while, so to deflect that as much as possible so no one truly looks into the insanity of quiverfull makes sense.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jeff
y'all are falling for the
y'all are falling for the fake news.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
>this wasnt partisan until
>this wasnt partisan until someone made it partisan.
You actually posted that with a straight face? Lol....
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
The white supremacist that
The white supremacist that has been sourced to this 'news' isn't partisan? Please...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
This news came from Wikileaks
This news came from Wikileaks.
The Pizza joint thing was a good tangential strawman to try and get it all dismissed by the public though.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
>>>this wasnt partisan until
>>>this wasnt partisan until someone made it partisan.
what was the start of this thread? an ex government official to possibly be prosecuted for pedophilia.
and then i posted 2 more gov officials, weirdly enough, one democrat, and the other rep.
this was more about pedophilia in our government, then someone else decided to take it to the "politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign" thing
--------
note the comparing society v government question about pedophilia.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
>The Pizza joint thing was a
>The Pizza joint thing was a good tangential strawman to try and get it all dismissed by the public though.
So why were you then so hot on that topic, pushing the validity of that story? Strawman....lol
>what was the start of this thread? an ex government official to possibly be prosecuted for pedophilia.
Refresh my memory? I was the one to bring up pizzagate?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
>>>> that has been sourced to
>>>> that has been sourced to this 'news'
the Weiner news which had me starting the thread?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
And do some research Guy on
And do some research Guy on where that story originated from.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
DCF Florida lost records on
DCF Florida lost records on hundreds(some say thousands) of kids in their foster system in the 80's -90's, and reports from that era found connections to the child sex slave trade. trying to keep this on the pedophilia train.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: _
>> Ender, those accusations
>> Ender, those accusations came from contestants of Miss Teen USA pageant.
My mistake. I didn't know Trump owned two different pageants.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
>the Weiner news which had me
>the Weiner news which had me starting the thread?
I'm fairly positive that you can follow along with were this thread went and as it was going the 'pizzagate' way did you interject and put this back on track?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
You just did. I stand
You just did. I stand corrected.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
I think it's you who are
I think it's you who is misinformed, Jonas, especially about the origins of this thing
There is something to "Pizzagate" as its known in the vernacular. The press was able to knock it down because the very first NYT story created a strawman by saying it was about Hillary Clinton running a pedo ring out of a pizza joint, which was a patent miscategorization of what people were looking at. Of course that wasn't the case, but everyone and their mother latched on to the slight of hand they pulled by following the strawman with "none of it was true" quoted then by everyone and their mother, hoping to sweep it under the rug.
And then we were off to the races with the "fake news" meme.
PizzaGate isn't the "thing" it's a symptom.
Weiner and pizzagate are related.
It sounds like Weiner's emails get at the bigger picture.
I hope 2017 is treating you and yours well, Jonas.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
Guy -- you consistently seem
Guy -- you consistently seem to connect dots that aren't really connected. I too have thoughts and theories on news that just don't sit right with me. I will stand by my notion that this was a politically motivated attack against the Clinton campaign. This is the age of the internet. A single post has already been captured and cited. I'm not buying the slight of hand of notion. You and many others give too much credit and make too many assumptions. It's like my old man telling me when I was high school that I must have been involved with the mafia because I sold weed.
We have to be realistic. Pedophilia is no more rampant with the rich than it is with the poor. I'd venture to say that more poor kids are abused, molested and pimped out by their own families than any sort of privileged patriarchal underground society. And I'm not talking about selling your kid to the local oil field owner for $200. I'm speaking to the 'for a $50 bag of meth take my 12 year old for a few hours' type of disgusting shit. Sometimes it's the messenger and not the message that fucks things up.
We're all on the same page.
All is good man. The same to you and yours!
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jeff
goodlight. i would like to
goodlight. i would like to hear about alien/ufo information that the government has been hiding for years. autopsies etc.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jon
jr, your actually one of them
jr, your actually one of them......
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
All good, Jonas. I fully
All good, Jonas. I fully admit to my Beautiful Mind tendencies, but I assure you, the subset of what I believe compared to the general population is miniscule.
What I'm willing to entertain as a possibility, however, is probably much much wider than the population. Fringe subjects interest me and I often play Devil's Advocate here to try and keep the discussion interesting or see if it stimulates someone else to bring something to the table I hadn't heard. You might see that as a copout, bit its 100% true. Being a careful curator of the perceptions held of this handle I use isn't really a priority for me. The odd tidbits are. Im confident in my 3d translation, so I'm not afraid to look a little nutty here.
JR! I know youre trolling me , but if you are serious, you'll find the answers to the questions you seek in Antarctica. Start with Admiral Byrd and Operation Highjump. Jonny seems to be hip.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
I honestly enjoy the back and
I honestly enjoy the back and forth that we have on this or any subject. Believe me, I'm just as 'nutty' if not nuttier than you on certain topics.
Hopefully one of these days we can bullshit over a twelve pack.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jeff
i actually wasn't goodlight.
i actually wasn't goodlight. saw something regarding Edward Snowden and aliens thus my interest was peeked.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
I'll drink to that.
<<<Hopefully one of these days we can bullshit over a twelve pack
I'll drink to that.
I honestly appreciate the rigor you apply to this stuff, Jonas. I know you have an open mind and are really just probing for something more solid than a Dan Brown Mystery to hang your hat on when you challenge these things.
JR, it seems as though "Disclosure" talk has been ramping up all over the place recently. I wouldn't be surprised if 2017 held some surprises. Honestly, look at Antarctica. Something seems to be brewing down there relating to our ancient history and our impending future. Many rumors circulating.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
is HighJump his search for
is HighJump his search for the German Base, and he lost some men and a ship i think, which i understand is documented in German history, the base that is.
and correct me if I am wrong, didn't the Argentines think that the Germans who showed up in subs after the war, came from Antarctica.
i havnt thought about that in a long time. My Latin and German(yes 4 years of both) teacher throughout high school was from German wealth, and used to talk about the Germans conquest of Antarctica prior to WW2, and this was in the late 80's. Didn't know there was a possible alien leg of the story.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
i cannot think of a better
i cannot think of a better place for aliens to hide out than Antarctica. I'm familiar with Operation Paperclip and Admiral Byrd's testimony of encountering an inner earth civilization- it's intriguing. Hitler and the Nazi's also had a great interest in Antarctica, and theories abound about aliens providing technology to the SS.
There has been a renewed interest in Antarctica, and some photos have emerged showing an object that is believed to be a pyramid, but it's inconclusive in my opinion.
If interested in wild speculation, check out Steve Quayle's work on the subject. However, Steve approaches the topic from a biblical perspective, and has concluded that the alien civilization down there are descendants of the fallen angels, or nephilim.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
Fallen Angels / Annunaki....
Fallen Angels / Annunaki.....all a matter of perpective.
What's interesting is watching the divergent faces of this all pointing at the same thing and not even necessarily realizing it as they focus on their own dogma.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
An Annunaki reference, you
An Annunaki reference, you must have read Zecharia Sitchin?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
oh I've read most of all this
Oh I've read most of all this stuff, tbh.
And I have some huge problems with Sitchin, but I think that term is convenient for what we are talking about here.
Another term would be the Pre-Adamites and there seems to be a crossover with what we would consider "Atlanteans" mixed in there.
Yeah. Nutty. But it's coming from all sorts of channels now.
Most people can feel good this is just nothing more than Fake News, though.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jeff
I like Graham Hancock's take
I like Graham Hancock's take on the subject.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: smiley
Patriarch Kirill of the Russian Othodox Church recently bridged a thousand year Rift with the Catholic Church, speaking with the Pope in Cuba before departing directly for Antarctica to perform some undisclosed ceremony.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VL26B
I know, probably just two unrelated dots, but there seems to be other evidence of an uptick in visits from world dignitaries to the icy continent. I'm sure that can be attributed to new accessibility and interest in the environment, but that doesn't seem to be the totality of the picture from what I've seen.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Lassen
^ yep, i read about that,
^ yep, i read about that, interesting. What does the catholic and orthodox church have to do in Antarctica? Baptize penguins?
John Kerry was in Antarctica on election day last November, which struck me as odd. Buzz Aldrin was down there recently as well, and there is an apparently cryptic tweet from him about us all being in danger. However, that was never verified.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: Where Does The Time Go?
>>> Buzz Aldrin was down
>>> Buzz Aldrin was down there recently as well, and there is an apparently cryptic tweet from him about us all being in danger. However, that was never verified.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjIXwkX1e48
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
http://www.nbcnews.com/news
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jerry-sandusky-s-son-jeff-charged-ch...
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
It's so fucking awesome that
It's so fucking awesome that there are aliens in Antartica.
Here I am, naively thinking that because they don't wear clothing that they would prefer tropical climates. Thanks for clearing that up.
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: DaBreeze
They can mimic the
They can mimic the characteristics of their host...'member..?
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: always
Jerry Sandusky Son arrested
Jerry Sandusky Son arrested
and Philippe Reines and Hillary tease Flynn with some pizzagate stuff on twitter.
you cant write this any better
Top of Page Bottom of Page PermalinkFull Name: jonaspond
>Jerry Sandusky Son arrested
>Jerry Sandusky Son arrested
Molestation victim becomes the molester. Pretty standard.
>and Philippe Reines and Hillary tease Flynn with some pizzagate stuff on twitter.
The glass house thing... again pretty standard.
Given the circumstance of both of these very different scenarios why would either be so fascinating or unexpected?