Pure Greed

I refuse to use streaming music services because of things like this. I get the argument that it is a convenient way to listen to a lot of different music but this is probably the main reason live performance ticket prices go up and up. Some artists with multi-million streams in a month end up getting less than $100 for all that play.

Supporting services that screw over those who provide the music is not something I can get behind.  

>>> I get the argument that it is a convenient way to listen to a lot of different music...

convenience is death.

Ever since the world began,
Satan's followed every man.
Trapping evil if he can,
I tell you now his greatest plan.

Invented when I cannot tell,
Defied the thoughts of man so well.
Man wants money for his need,
But soon it sows its evil seed.

Unhappiness it only brings,
As man wants more and better things.
If not enough the evil lies,
But soon you'll find somebody dies.

Throughout the years there have been wars,
Power and richness have been the cause.
Trapped in money's evil net,
Man wants more than he can get.

You don't need money.
No, no, no, no,
You don't need money.
No, no, no, no,
You don't need money.

It'll never bring you love,
No more than the sun above.
You'll never see the end,
The money you will surely spend.

But ask for help if you sin,
Reclaim yourself, what a state you're in.
The devil has you in his grasp,
There ain't no mercy you can ask.

More and more you will need,
You're strangled in the clutch of greed.
You can't get out, no place to go,
You sold your soul, the answer's no!

Songwriters: Chris Dreja / James Stanley Mc Carty / Jeff Beck / Keith Relf / Paul Samwell-Smith

Ever Since the World Began/ THE YARDBIRDS
https://youtu.be/ncnsU0NBD74

Some artists with multi-million streams in a month end up getting less than $100 for all that play. <<

WoW that is Insane !

Same here, they won't get a penny from me.  <<<

Me Too !

i think it sucks that bars have to subscribe to some sort of pay to play service instead of being able to blast their own tunes.

I use Apple Music and I think it’s great 

i just remembered, Apple Music recently turned me onto the music of Southside Johnny too

I use the Spotify daily.

>>Some artists with multi-million streams in a month end up getting less than $100 for all that play.
I produced an album about 14 years ago for Amy Anne. She and two others wrote a clever little song called "Johnny Depp".
It became huge on youtube, with millions of hits and plays, being the subject of dozens of videos.
I tried unsuccessfully for years to reach someone at youtube and then Google, when they took over, to find out about the royalties.
Finally a few years ago, I was able to get CD Baby, the album distributor, to begin collecting at least the digital play fee, which is usually a fraction of a penny.
They could not collect prior years, even though youtube used to list the number of plays on their website.
Amy created a youtube channel for herself and was able to get more dough if people played the song and let the ads run.

All in all I think the song garnered a few hundred dollars. If this song had been released before digital media to radio and got the same amount of airplay, the song would have earned over $10k.
Unless an artist is signed and the label has the appropriate access to (and in some cases, ownership of) digital conglomerates, like the ones mentioned in this thread, there is almost no way to track plays and recover the appropriate royalties. Even then, the label gets the money, with 50% going to the publisher (usually, a subsidiary of the label) and the remainder going to whoever is specified in the recording contract. All others (indies) who do not have this kind of access, seldom make enough to pay for their recording. The RIAA lobby had a lot to do with this by getting the government to pass anti-piracy laws, which protected the industry, but not the artists.

This is one of the reasons I will not produce commercial recordings any more. It's too hard to watch people work to create something that might become popular, but will not pay them for their art and time. Meanwhile, these streaming services make tons of money by selling advertising and subscriptions.

Oh, this youtube video is listed as "Johnny Depp - Official Song (Amy Anne Band)" on a channel by imagine nic. It appears when you google "Johnny Depp by Amy Anne". Nic may be making some real money off the video, but Amy Anne might see a couple of bucks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sryBY6WHBPM

>> Did you sell your old Grateful Dead bootlegs too?!? <<

No, but I did recently toss them.

I fully support the artists getting more than they currently get. A lot more.

>>but I did recently toss them.<

like, in the trash...man?

>>>>Did you sell your old Grateful Dead bootlegs too?!?

is that the consensus here? That using a streaming music service in 2019 is similar to having sold GD bootlegs while the Grateful Dead were still performing? 

I mean, musicians appear to be about the most ripped off profession on the face of the planet, but shouldn’t they be pissed at their lawyers at this point? Where is their campaign to boycott Spotify and the like? Didn’t Kanye, Jay-Z and a bunch of other artists start their own streaming site? What happened to that one? Is it OK to use their site? 

Is it still ok to listen to my old Led Zeppelin CD’s? 

Didn’t Kanye, Jay-Z and a bunch of other artists start their own streaming site? What happened to that one? Is it OK to use their site? <<

Wasn't there some scam that resulted in a ludicrous bullshit number of "phantom" plays for certain artists?

Am I "ripping off artists" if I use these services (Pandora and Spotify) without paying (as in the free option and listening to the commercials)?

Every Tuesday Apple Music makes me a new mixed tape of the best music ever, like it’s the coolest girlfriend from the 1980’s. 

It’s going to be very difficult to break up at this point but I’m open to hearing more about why streaming is bad.

So I am ripping off an artist the times I stream Amazon from my phone to my headphones. 

No stupid questions Jaz - sheesh 

just know that you are ripping musicians off 

Are you still ripping artists off if you wait for the Jeff G. cover?

I tried unsuccessfully for years to reach someone at youtube<<<<

Did you ask for Susan?

Nice!

Well...maybe not "nice", but well done!

Bucky, that was a statement,  not a question. 

Therefore it wasn't a stupid question. 

Need to make a few points. Spotify and Pandora don’t make a profit. They are both well-funded and working toward a future where they scale and can start making money. Having worked for a while in the radio industry I know that the rights Pandora pays to stream online are way higher than the rights radio stations pay to broadcast. It has always been a sticking point with the streaming services. The fact that the money doesn’t make it to the artist has nothing to do with streaming services and everything to do with the age old music industry stealing money from artist. Same as it ever was. Yes independent artist now get ripped off by streaming services too but how is that different than before streaming services.

Concert tickets are expensive because of the Eagles not streaming services. The Hell Freezes Over tour woke the concert industry up to the fact that people will pay way more to go to concerts. And people continue to pay. Personally think there is a reckoning coming since young people can’t afford it so concert going isn’t a part of their lives. The industry is living on those of us that grew up with concerts and refuse to give them up.

I listen almost exclusively to Spotify. Being able to carry around just about every song ever produced along with hundreds of dead shows and JGB shows in my pocket is right up there with flying cars in my opinion. I guess that makes me a bad person, but I can live with it.

a young person recently told me they spent over $600 for a concert ticket...

Now that is a statement of stupidity on Turtle's young person.

How much is airfare, hotel and tickets for a concert? Probably 600 per true head. 

>Did you ask for Susan?
Never thought to ask for anyone specifically. I suppose at the time I should have tried to contact Chad, Jawd and/or Steve. I did try youtube's corporate contact info, which was an email form (no phone available as with Google). Never got an answer. ASCAP couldn't help me with it either.

Also, about these people making videos that use other people's music. They are supposed to acquire a mechanical license to use the tunes. Only one German college student actually contacted me for permission and licensing to use the Depp song in an art film. After discussing the student's need, which was for a school film festival, with the songwriters, we all agreed to charge just $50 for the license. I added a stipulation that if the student made money from the film or sold it, she would pay the songwriters 30%. The film was very amateurish, but we figured it was better to help the student than try to make money. The $50 basically covered the postage and a copy of the "Supergirl" CD.

Compare that arrangement with a song I wrote called, "Genie". I originally added a little rap in the beginning with a snippet of me playing the intro to the "I Dream Of Jeannie" theme song, which was written by Hugo Montenegro and Buddy Kaye. The owner of the song was Screen Gems - EMI, who represented the estates of the deceased writers. I contacted EMI to see if I could have permission to use the snippet. They said I could use it if I paid them $5,000.00 for the mechanical license, credited the songwriters and EMI and paid them a percentage of any royalties from the song. Since I could not afford the fees at the time, I had to take the snippet out of the commercial release so I would not be sued, as they threatened this in our communication.
Big difference from the Barking Spiders album I produced, which has a cover of  "Deal". Ice Nine issued me a mechanical license and only charged me 8 cents for each copy of the album.
Basically, the use of copyrighted material depends on who the owners are.

As for streaming "free" music from digital services, someone gets paid for the song when you play it. It's like listening to radio or a juke box, if you pay for the service. The artists and writers may or may not get paid, depending on how the music is tracked and reported to performing rights organizations. While it may be difficult for indie artists to recover their due, it is much easier for the major labels, since they usually license the music before it reaches the outlets.

the trichordist is a very informative blog regarding these issues.

lots of interesting information.

https://thetrichordist.com/2013/01/28/over-50-major-brands-supporting-mu...

I am loving the downfall of the former corporate labels. I will continue to use Spotify to make that happen. No artist has any guarantee that his art will be successful commercially. That's true for the glass blower, banjo player, Mike Gordon, and even David Gans.  

Until new technology comes along, I'll be using Spotify or a similar service. Of course, you can still buy albums, merch, and shows from the artists you love-and you should if you can.

I don't buy that ticket prices are more because artists get less from Spotify. They cost more because of Live Nation. Thanks!

Having worked for a while in the radio industry I know that the rights Pandora pays to stream online are way higher than the rights radio stations pay to broadcast. It has always been a sticking point with the streaming services.

Radio stations pay more to songwriters and nothing to artists. That's the way it's been ever since the court set the rate based on the decree order for BMI/ASCAP. Rates can not change unless the court says they can. The reason radio stations never had to pay master royalties (royalties payed to the artist that performs a song) is that airplay was considered a promotion to entice the listener to buy an LP/CD/etc. Artist normally got paid fairly well for actual sales (not taking into account accounting "errors" and poor management arrangements). Since overall sales are way down, even when including digital sales, the artist no longer can make a living on sales of their music. While the Eagles showed artists CAN charge more, all artists charge more now because that is almost the only way they can make a living.  Touring is also the primary way of selling merchandise, which for many artist is the thing that puts them in the black. There are other revenue streams such as licensing songs for TV/Movies. Those rates are individually negotiated with the producers of those shows. I've mentioned this before and it bears repeating because it shows how little sales and streaming contributes to the bottom line theses days. A well know group that I have dealings with and are rather popular (not superstar popular but in the next lower tier) and they have made more money thru the licensing  of two songs to movies and TV shows than they have via sales of their recorded product of over 25 years. Hence they tour non-stop. 

Streaming services pay both songwriters and artist but the overall payout is less than what a radio station pays the songwriter. 

Am I "ripping off artists" if I use these services (Pandora and Spotify) without paying (as in the free option and listening to the commercials)?

No, you are not directly "ripping off artists." You are supporting businesses that paying less that what many believe artists should be payed. A similar example might be a place like Walmart (example only. I don not know the particulars of Walmarts pay rate) where they pay a majority of their staff minimum wage although they could pay a living wage. Not using a streaming service is akin to refusing to shop at Walmart because of their pay rates. 

Everyone can make their own choice but I'm sticking to mine and will continue to as long as the payouts from streaming are so low. 

i won't shop at walmart and i don't use streaming services.

I shop online at Amazon, but if Walmart.com is selling what I need at a lower price  I’ll order from that site. Won’t  ever find me inside a Walmart store or Target either.  I also watch Amazon prime video using a relative’s log in. In exchange I share my xfinity log in and they watch HBO for free. 

And I have Sirius radio in my car at $5 a month. I also purchase tickets to live nation and goldenvoice concerts. 

yeah, I’m a sinner and I don’t care

you won’t ever find me in a Chick-fil-A though. 

Streaming services didn’t cause any of the hardship listed here. It was a perfect storm of the internet and computers coming together to make music the worlds easiest product to steal.

Pandora is hanging by a thread and had to merge with Sirius another company hanging by a thread. Spotify has never made money. Apple is happy to sit on the side line and let Spotify fight the fight because they will be there pick up the pieces if they fail. They can wait it out and just use their streaming service as an enticement to get people to buy iPhones. Google/YouTube streams more music than anyone are we supposed to stop using Google too?

I get that it sucks for people who make music now compared to the way it was before cheap computing power and the internet, but in a world of bad actors from Napster to the labels -  to point the finger at streaming companies doesn’t make sense to me. If streaming services went away tomorrow everybody would just go back to stealing music.

We used to play for acid now we play for Clive.

however,artists now have more freedom to cerate and distribute their art via the web....

i think it sucks that bars have to subscribe to some sort of pay to play service instead of being able to blast their own tunes. <<<

Most Excellent Post Turtle !

i think it sucks that bars have to subscribe to some sort of pay to play service instead of being able to blast their own tunes.

Blasting tunes is one way a bar attracts more people and to coax those people to buy more drinks because of the blasting tunes atmosphere. They are making money off of the recordings one way or another. That is why they need to pay for the use of the tunes. If they were giving away all the drinks and everything else, they would be free to not pay for playing the music. 

Totally, I like Spotify 

I can see why bars should have to pay to play music. Can they play a radio station for free though? 

Lots of bars have pay jukeboxes too. Ones that you can play whatever songs you want to hear.