Sometimes I thing the Q was the worst thing to happen to Phil Lesh

PLQ WAS AWESOME From October 2000 thru 2002 Plus  The Reunion in 2003 ! The PLQ Ruled Back Then.

Phil Lesh is a jazz cat deep down << Um Phil played over 70 plus shows with the Q in 2001 = HE LOVED THAT BAND ! PLQ

Nice to read that, Tony. The Q didn't do it for me though some individual musicians do or did. And, yes, Phil always does it for me. 

That band set a pretty high bar, don't blame them (or us). 

There's a reason why that particular combo is summoned up every so often, it's still the highest-octane vehicle in the garage.

I do hope to see them again.

I'm not really into wearing my Q shirt anymore. Dude ruined it.

History would have been different if he made a better fashion choice:

Interesting thoughts Ski... what I read into it is that the Q was really another point in the great things Phil was a part of. It comes down to people's expectations. Every time an artist tries something new it gets compared to what they did in the past. Robert Fripp has written alot about how audiences in the 80's were expecting to see 1973 King Crimson and then were complaining even though Kc were laying down some killer shows. As a thoughtful intelligent audient what are ones expectations going into any given show?? If someone's going to a show with an open mind, in most cases you're going to have a good time. If you're going to a Robert Plant show expecting to see Led Zeppelin then you'll probably be disappointed. Regarding Phil (and everyone other GD member) the 70's shoes were compared against the 60's.. and the 80's get criticized against the 70's, and so on... The Other ones, The Dead, PLQ, Ratdog, Planet Drum, Billy and thr Kids, D&Co, Wolf Brothers, etc. IMHO At least they continue to try and push the envelope with new songs and configurations. It's a conscious decision to open one's mind to actually listen to a performance and intelligently decide if the performance was enlightening or not. Enter the space with a sense of joy and adventure, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to!

^ Rongeo, Can you please be little more cynical and bitter -- I cant even read that logical, optimistic, obvious word salad without wanting to adopt a disabled puppy -- you must be in your twenties. 

> Ever since then, no matter who plays with Lesh, all I read is moaning and groaning

Has this happened lately? Around here?

compared to dead & co

or further

lololol

everyone is entitled to heir opinion

Q uber alles is mine

compared to dead & co

or further

lololol

everyone is entitled to heir opinion

Q uber alles is mine

 

and 69 - 72 dead uber alles even more by a mile

Interesting click-bait title Tony. Good work. 

I think most of the Q reminiscing was in the late aughts, during Jackie's tenancy. 

I thought that band was a special entity in time, but it also felt right when they disbanded as a touring unit. Saw many of their shows but Maritime Hall 2001, Greek 2002 and Warfield 2003 all have a special place in memory. 

At least with the Q you felt like you were watching a professional band and not Phil and the School Of Rock.

It was a great band that ignited a GD renaissance. Cant fault them for that. I'm open to all sorts of friends and have enjoyed many different lineups over the last 20+ years. Phil set the bar high with many of those groups. The Q's existence didn't create picky deadheads. We are a critical bunch and largely can discern shit from shinola as a group. If there's a resounding groan from the peanut gallery regarding a lineup, its generally warranted.

Love Warren but playing Jerry/GD  tunes didn't do it for me. He was awesome with the Allman's. Southern rock and blues is his forte. Psychedelia isn't. 

 

For me I guess,

Nobody can fill Jerry's shoes!

 

Everyone else pales in comparison.

High water mark but it started with Kimock and Anastasio.  That was the template.

Heard Lesh and the Family Band on successive nights in Mobile when Jake Peavy brought them here.  Pretty good in the room.  Augmented by Eric Krasno and Marcus King however.  Second night Ivan Neville, Jennifer Hartswick, and local keyboard whiz Chris Spies as well.

 

THIS!! >>> "At least with the Q you felt like you were watching a professional band and not Phil and the School Of Rock."

Phil is great and may be Jazz Cat at heart whom may dig playing with an array of musicians but there is very little jazz value coming out of his more recent line-ups. Plus, it's fairly widely known and documented that he could also stretch a buck like a rubber band, particularly the bucks of others (ie Roadies and their weed, C, D, and E-lister musicians, etc). He can clearly do whatever he wants, performance wise or anything else, but claiming that he doesn't want to travel to play shows is laughable every time Shappy ponies up a Cap run or whatever. 

> Maritime Hall 2001

Arguably the best run of post-GD music involving one of the members of the band.

at least they brought back the heavy tunes like viola that disappeared for decades.

and i'm w/ doolittle on warren. 

I listen to recordings of the Grateful Dead a lot.

The various post-GD line-ups hardly ever, and wonder why I collected those recordings.

But sometimes I crank up the Q and always enjoy the revisit. 

The Q!

Remembering that Phil wanted to create TXR to have something like Levon Helms' Rambles, with ensembles, rotating players, I think he was much more successful early on in TXR's history. I wonder if the vision got lost, if the energy to put it together waned, and I'm not sure I can remember pre-Covid lineups as well as I'd like, so maybe it was better than I remember.

The travelers coming through like the Dickinson's were lively and fun. There were many others; I wonder when a variety of musicians will return.

Completely agree with Dave, Guy, and Doolittle's posts.

Warren is great in the Allman Bros/Govt. Mule spot, but the GD? Phil (and Bobby with "the Dead") thought so, but Phil and Bobby do

lots of shit I don't agree with; who gives a fuck at the end, but if you're paying good money to see a band,

most of us want them to come across as professional and rehearsed.

   

   

 

 

 

Regarding the Q... not a fan of the Beaker-esque guitar tone.

 

 

The Q was the Apex.  That unit raised Phil's game.  The "tapes" don't lie.

Garcia says what

35 years ago today. First time the GD played with this friend onstage.

Weird show, Baby Blue in the middle of the first set, literally couldn't give tickets away to this show......

My how things changed a year later.......

 

> the Beaker-esque guitar tone

Beaker?

Remembering that Phil wanted to create TXR to have something like Levon Helms' Rambles, with ensembles, rotating players, I think he was much more successful early on in TXR's history.

There was so much hope for the potential and it never really got all the way off the ground, but came close with the NMAS bros and Bill Frisell. Unfortunately over time it turned into local bar band material with a world class price tag. I love me some Phil but that only goes so far he needs a good band to justify the price point and family band with a few bay area guys ain't there yet. If the tickets were $20 I'd pull the trigger and feel it was money well spent but I'm not rich and there's plenty of world class musicians I can see for less than TXR is charging (Sam Bush $25 at the Mystic for example), closer to home. I'm happy for the folks who pay a premium to see Phil play if it makes them happy, and for sure he should do whatever the fuck he wants to as long as it's worth it to him. I'm just not on that bus.

They were a hell of a lot of good lineups at TXI for the first 567 years

God bless still wish

 

And God bless Phil lesh

 

Maybe he's a bit like Moses

>>>>>>but came close with the NMAS bros and Bill Frisell

 

 

Thanks again for the ticket to that awesome experience, Dise. 

The last minute guest shows outside are fun but hard to get to. We did get one killer free afternoon a couple summers ago. 

Despite popular opinion, mainly from those who aren't ever there, Phil has consistently played with a wide variety of quality professional musicians at TxR since the beginning, and he continues to do that.

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they're not good.

Expectations are a bitch, and should be left at the door.

That's much easier to say than to do, but that's the only way to really hear the music.

Good luck with that, and carry on.

> the Beaker-esque guitar tone

Beaker?

 

I think that's a reference to certain times Warren would use his slide during the more formless, improv-y jams.

 

MEEEB! Meemeemeemeemeemeeemeeeb!

 

I didn't get right away.  If I got it.   

 

 

I know a lot of "quality professional musicians" that arent all that compelling.

With this music, the x factor is the secret sauce and I havent heard a lot of x factor from the likes of the Family Band. And I listen to what I can, because I still love Phil, but he's left a lot to be desired in the lineups imo.

Phil Lesh stopped searching for the sound.

That was the worst thing that ever happened to Phil Lesh.

 

 

It was my pleasure, Knots. Glad you had a good time and I'm happy I was in on it!

 

MEEEB! Meemeemeemeemeemeeemeeeb

 

You are correct

>>> from the likes of the Family Band<<<

I think that's the central issue; the general misconception that Phil has only played with those particular players for a long time now, or that the other locals he plays with are of the same quality level, which is neither true or fair to either group of musicians.

He does often play with locals like Stu Allen, Lebo, Scott Law, Scott Amendola & others, and that's because they ARE local and because they know the music well & are proficient with Phil's style of open improv, so extended rehearsals aren't necessary, and stiff, jumbled, mistake-prone shows don't happen. They may not have the notoriety and perceived brilliance of nationally known players, but every one of those guys and the others Phil routinely uses are all fine professional players, and they don't flub the songs or get lost in the jams.

It's understandable that some may have an issue with Stu Allen in particular because he's a "fake Jerry" and that's fair, but he's still a very good player who knows the music intimately and can improvise really well, i.e. he's good. And so are all those others.

Yet along with the revolving regular cast of quality locals, Phil has also consistently continued to play with more nationally known players - NAMES - which seems to be what many are looking for & are willing to pay for (whether the music is actually good or not) and apparently what many have missed.

In the two or three years before he shut things down for his back surgery I routinely saw Phil play with Scofield, Frisell, Anders Osborne, Larry Campbell, Stanley Jordan, Scott Metzger, Luther Dickinson, Eric Krasno, Barry Sless (just another local pro) Chris Gelbuda, Al Schnier, Chris Robinson, Jeff Chementi, Karl Denson & various others from his band, John Medeski, Holly Bowling, Steve Molitz, Robert Randolph, Peter Rowan, John Molo, Joe Russo, Stephen Perkins, Cody Dickinson, and many more. Most more than once and many of those often.

Now not all of those players may work for an individual's ear, they don't all work for mine, but it's a mistake to call any of those players not good or dishwashers or whatever, yet there seems to be a prevailing idea, again by those who don't attend the venue, that Phil only plays with local semi-pros & "dishwashers".

And that's just wrong. 

My point is that Phil continues to consistently play with a very wide variety of top quality professional musicians. For what should be obvious reasons, he most often plays with those who live in the BA, but he also continues to play with those who are available when coming through the Bay Area on their own tours or have a little extra time. 

And IMO, beyond the talent that Phil had in the various bands he put together in the ten or so years of the true Phil & Friend era, whether it was the Hallowed Q or the Ham & Eggers or whoever, what really made those bands work as well as they did is that he kept those groups together for an extended time and they could rehearse & tour and get to really know each other and the music.

Which is what has been happening with those local professionals (and what happened with the Family Band as well) and what often doesn't happen with the NAMES at the one-off or short run events. So if you really want good music, be careful what you wish for at these upcoming Phil road shows.

Anyway, people are gonna' like what they're gonna' like, I'm just trying to keep the facts straight.

Excellent points, Lance.

Phil and friends

22 years ago today, with Phil, Bill Kreutzmann, Steve Kimock, David, Barry and Mookie.

 

warfield 99

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nelsonband/permalink/10157733707770443/

 

And that's a kick in the head

 

No professional dishwashers here  lance

 

And yes the first two years ago but still had a Lotta good shit happening

This pushes me over the edge of the wire  and I'm going to crank this fucking music tomorrow I will allow myself to smile laugh and cry
 

some  of you folks may want to give it a listen

Some fine shit there LLTD I must say. The opener Phil/Bill is divine. Help/Slip/Franklins is transporting me. Is a show I would take on a road trip. Phil happy to be alive after his operation. 

..."keeping the facts straight" with a shit ton of opinion.

Alan that guy needs a bobby shirt

i can often tell by the author what i will think of the thread

also did not read most of this lol

((((((((((((((((Q)))))))))))))))

ok i read lance's stuff since he is the perpetual voice of reason

he is correct, natch

also who sez dishwashers cannot jam like motherfuckers?

^^^^ not people who have class consciousness

i saw lord henry and crew play viola lee blues last night.

i can speak for myself

 

also - one thing is true

lance writes so very well, and is thoughtful, and chooses good topics, and does research

"facts straight" hmmm that might be a wee bit condescending...

 

one might call him biased (co  employee with dishwashers, also, one might call him well reasoned)

rock on universe!

celebrate every day

god bless phil lesh

god blessed us with him ==== PHILZONE ======

I have a semi-related question does anyone know when or how

phil so greatly improved  his singing voice did you take voice lessons did he just focus on listening to himself and working on it

 

 

Or is a part of it a byproduct of the aging process

He is more than 100% better and if you take the emotion out of it the dead sure have crappy voices ....

Pretty sure he's switched up keys here and there, which also helps.

I recall a Loser that started w/Em instead of Am.  Ditto 1/2 Step.

 

...

Nice. For the longest time I thought LH was Sam Bush hahaha for real.

> ...

Really, 73? That's not what I read before. lol

The multiverse is alive and well, I guess, Mike.

Or

You aint gonna learn what you dont want to know

Or

Take a step back

 

Choose your own adventure!

2 things.  1st - Tony you've always been wrong.  Love your pics but your take on how things shake out always miss the mark.  2nd -- this whole scene would have been buried if PLQ had not emerged.  Weir wasn't doing it.  Furthur Fest couldn't even sustain a few tours.   PLQ>TOO at Alpine Valley>TOO fall Tour>PLF>Ratdog>The Dead>Further>The 50th>Dead and Co.     

I'll go with Option #1, 73.

>  this whole scene would have been buried if PLQ had not emerged.

Amen to that, jonas. The Qs music sizzled then, and it's still sizzlin' now. What else do you need to know?

I for one would like to know: where's the phil avant-garde classical composer/symphony stuff he was always championing earlier in his career? I think Telstar Jams where supposed to go that way, but somehow PLF usually means phil with a variety of other musicians playing grateful dead tunes. Not that i'm complaining about that, but...i would love to see phil play some stockhausen or somesuch and not have to hear friend of the devil or franklin's tower for the umpteeenth time.

and zoners, please i'm not complaining about how the music sizzles now or then. the music is good, sometimes great, sometimes not good, but it would be nice to see phil on some non-gd or non-R&R stuff.

i blame ryan and jackie

2 things.  1st - Tony you've always been wrong <<<<<<<

As much as skifurthur and myself don't always see eye to eye, I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

2nd -- this whole scene would have been buried if PLQ had not emerged.  Weir wasn't doing it.<<<<

Q was definitely a huge shot in the arm, but do you really believe the scene would've been "buried" if it hadn't emerged?   Regardless of who's your favorite in the whole battle of the bands rating equation (>) , the fact remains that the surviving members of the GD weren't simply going to throw in the towel and would invariably cross paths with one another in some way shape or form regardless of who else they played with or what they're "called".

 

i saw lord henry and crew play viola lee blues last night. <<< Way Cool Turtle

what has Lord Henry been up to ?

phil lesh was the best thing to ever happen to the Q

> do you really believe the scene would've been "buried" if [the Q] hadn't emerged?

I really believe it. Does anyone really listen to TOO or Ratdog these days? Or Further for that matter?

I'd go further than that and say what Phil did in the early 2000's was a major factor in the recent surge of mainstream & indie acceptance and respect the Grateful Dead have received in the past 5 to 10 years.

 

>Does anyone really listen to TOO or Ratdog these days? Or Further for that matter<

 

I listen to those bands as often as I listen the Q, which is never. 

 

Ratdog and the Q, or PLF were equally a small as each other. Both played the same size venues when zigzagging the country. Funny hearing how some think Phil's bands dwarfed what Bobby was doing. We just knew Phil was doing it better was the difference 

> do you really believe the scene would've been "buried" if [the Q] hadn't emerged?

I really believe it. Does anyone really listen to TOO or Ratdog these days? Or Further for that matter?<<<

By and large, I don't listen to recordings of any of the above anymore; however, I would easily check out a show(s) in the neighborhood if it somehow magically materialized.   I think there are a lot of people who would too ... as evidenced by the demand for those recent Wolf Bros shows at Red Rocks.  Post-pandemic interest aside, just think of GD50 and the overall "latent demand" that exists within the "wordwork" that might not be around on a regular basis but is standing back and standing by?  

 

I still listen to the Q occasionally, like on the anniversaries of particularly memorable shows, but not nearly as much as I listen to the GD.

I am going to see Billy next Monday

 

The early rat dog years were way better. No big surprise

I will see the wolfBrothers at the Greek but have had  zero desire to see them 

I will see dead and company for the circus once a year but it kind of makes me sad to be honest

I will be happy to get inside the great room once again when God is playing

<< Billy Monday,, dead and company for the circus

Atta boy lltd.

What was once a full blown 3 ring, is now barely a 1 ring. Never gonna see a lot scene like Foxboro 90 ever again. The man ain't allowing that kind'a fun to happen no mo. Controlled chaos is the best we got now.

What was once The Masters, is now a round of mini golf.

But you have to still go, even to catch a fleeting glimpse,,  wtf else ya gonna do ?  

The child has grown, but the dream not gone.

The iteration of Phil and Friends proceeding the Q, the band with Molo, Robben Ford and the Little Feat guys, was pretty darn good. Phil's 60th Birthday show and the Summer 2000 tour closing for Dylan are worth additional listens.

The Q took our music to the heights we used to feel at Dead shows. The approach was vastly different which made it refreshing. The played all of the songs we longed for that the GD never played.  For every action there is usually a reaction and the Q has become the band we will compare all of Phil's other lineups. I have seen some incredible PLF shows post Q but I will always compare them to the Q to the point that I will say, "it's 3/5's of the Q."  
Is it the worst thing to happen to our music is like saying a vaccine is the worst thing in medicine because the shot hurt.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water 

I used to call them the best string band in the worls

Listen to 7/7/01 and tell me how that can be a bad thing. If it's wrong I don't want to be right 

 For every action there is usually a reaction and the Q has become the band we will compare all of Phil's other lineups<<<

Personally, I've always considered the April 1999 Warfield shows with Trey, Kimock, Page, Molo to be the "gold standard" shows.   The space between notes and the tone of the guitarists are far more in line with my tastes vs. Q.  FTR I wasn't even into Phish at the time, nor do I consider FTW to be near in the top of post-GD remnant ensembles.   I also vividly recall downloading these shows on dial-up and eagerly making copies for lots of folks.  Looking back in the rearview mirror:   there's also an element of "lost love" in the mix here in regard to Kimock and Phil making great music and not waves.

I do place the Q up near the "top" of my list & would be psyched if they somehow did get back together as a suprise for those Colorado shows.

Having said all of that, I do agree with skifurthur's original premise even moreso in light of the quote in this post:  it's almost akin to the deification of "Constitutional originalism" and that of the framers as being something akin to demigods.  The same can also be said of how we view Jerry for that matter.   There's something special in all of us and every once in a while you get shown the light ...