Things Phish Did Better Than The Grateful Dead

Damn, Dave, you're feeling ornery today, huh?

I knew lyrics wasn't going to be on the list before I opened the thread.

The Grateful Dead's jams would take you to the edge of losing your shit, but just at the right moment, they would come back from the brink and bring you back.   Phish's jams would take you to that point and keep on going.  Always thought their silly lyrics were there to offset their sick jams.

Who?

https://phish.net/setlists/?year=2017&month=07

Actually the Baker's Dozen run at MSG / New York City was in July and August,  which isn't really New Year's time-frame.

Phish have actually played "The Garden"  many times for NYE runs;  it's different than Summer.  Colder temperatures and no free doughnuts.

C'mon, Phish Food blows Cherry Garcia out of the water, and their lights are a fifth of the show.

They can still have fun

Herbal D, do U really think the rest of the GD could stop Jerry from doing whatever he wanted to do?

Had they made a decision to close shop, Jerry would have carried on with the JGB. 
 

Unless U were there, U wouldn't know.  That said, chances R that Trey was able to turn his life around without the other Phishies  help.
Whether the rest of the Phishes helped him or not is open for discussion. Except one would never know. 
 

Ornery behavior is par for the course in Zonerland. Keep up the good work. 
 

Side note:  Whether he left voluntarily or at the point of a knife, Tom Constanten is still alive to tell them tale. 
 

Aside from having less keyboard players, what else did Phish do better?

I know I know,, trampoline and crossdressing

>>> They learned from the Dead's mishandling of Jerry Garcia's situation.

I'm going to pile on on this one too because it is one of my pet peeves. It wasn't the dead heads making him into a god or the dead employee machine that kept pushing Jerry out there so that they could keep their jobs. It was Jerry. Addict going to act like an addict. It sucks particularly if you have to see it up close. It is just one of those things that happens to certain people and there isn't anything anyone can do to stop it. 

Side by side cover comparison:

Johnny B. Goode: Phish by a hair

The Mighty Quinn: GD by a mile.

It was Jerry - you're right. But his bandmates made a conscious decision to go on with a junkie skeleton for a guitar player. They could have chosen another path. Something like "Jerry, if you want to kill yourself on the road, that's your problem, but I'll have no part in it". But they didn't. They decided that all the cash, drugs and women were just too damn good to stop. And hey, if Jerry wants to keep killing himself that's his problem. It's a very 1960's psychedelic culture decision, but not a very compassionate or positive one.

>The Mighty Quinn: GD by a mile<

I vehemently disagree.  I hate the GD's version. The first couple notes sent me to the exit. 

Yeah maybe they would feel better about their actions now, but when you are in the middle of it you always think – OK surely they will get their shit together after – insert whatever fucked up thing the person did. Plus they had all gone though it themselves and gotten their own shit together at various stages. You just start to think that the person is taking longer to get there, but will eventually come around. Also it’s not like the road was any less healthy for him than being at home.

I don't know OCLT, I didn't see many QtEs. I just like Jerry's version better.

DBMBs

No worries, Ned. I'm not a big fan of the tune. Phish's version is the only one I can tolerate. 

I don't think Phish shut it down either time because the group as a whole decided they needed to, I think it was Trey alone who made the decision both times; the first time for mostly professional reasons, the second time because he was completely wasted and couldn't really perform anymore, and I don't think the other three totally agreed either time.

And obviously Phish breaking up didn't help Trey's addictions. It took him getting busted and forced to go through a serious rehab experience that actually saved him. I'm not sure anything would have saved Jerry from his love of drugs.

In my own personal opinion I don't think if the GD had gone into hiatus that would have been good for Jerry personally, but it might have been good for the band's quality if they had a chance to step back and reevaluate & reorganize some things.

As always it's great to have something or someone who has been through an experience to give those who follow examples of what can happen, and Phish certainly looked closely at the Grateful Dead example as they became seriously popular, and they used those examples to help guide their own experience. I think their first hiatus was based vey much on seeing the GD example of how huge & ungainly an operation it becomes when massively popular.

Anyway, I think there are lots of things Phish does and has done better than the Grateful Dead, but that's easy to say because the Grateful Dead were never the best at what they did, they were the only ones who did what they did.

Phish is the geeky bastard son of the Grateful Dead.

Dave shit the bed on his #2. Stu is correct, bakers dozen took place nowhere near New Years. Bakers dozen was a shitshow. GDs radio city hall run was a lot better in every way. At least you got to see them at a good venue for sound instead of the trash heap that is MSG.

I know a bunch of people that went to Baker's Dozen, and I didn't hear any complaints. Were you at Baker's Dozen or the GD. At Radio City?

I don't go to Phish anymore. Last show I was at was in 2012. What I heard from bakers dozens sounded horrible but I'm sure people liked it. I personally hate MSG and would never go there to see a show. I wouldn't even go back there for a basketball game. That whole part of NYC is just an absolute shitshow in general.

I like phish and wish I've seen them more. Love the long intricate jams. 

Mismanaged Jerry is good one... are you really that clueless. Garcia even said fuck it, fire me then.

Grateful Dead has better mugshots:

Total number of shoes played:

2,318 - Grateful Dead (1965-1995)

1,653 - Phish (1983-present)

As to how accurate these numbers R, uhh I have no idea.

Last phish show I saw was island tour 98 providence. Utterly uninteresting 

Redeem your barcode for a copy of the show.

What do people think about Phishs album "Joy"

^I like it a lot.   It's much better than Big Boat and Sigma Oasis, IMO

Wow, I didn't know it got worse than Joy. That's crazy. 

Seemed to go downhill after Junta

>>>>Seemed to go downhill after Junta

Lawn Boy was pretty good.   One of the best studio albums to come out of the jam band scene.  Rift was their last good album and the band peaked musically live in July 1994.    

^ the band peaked musically live in July 1994. 

They hit a new level with the new years 93 run. Spring and summer 94 were outstanding.  The White Album on  Halloween wasn't too shabby either 

You are fucking kidding right?

who?

oh well boredom

and a break from formal politics

phish better at anything? silly wabbit...
Burn him at the stake

heathen

>Things Phish Did Better Than The Grateful Dead<

Live music from 1991-1995

>Things Phish Did Better Than The Grateful Dead<

Live music from 1996 - 2019

Now you want me dead too?

I think we're going to have to put you over there.

But see? After all the years, still lots of room to grow.

>> Now you want me dead too? <<

Who's death lists are you on, Lance? Inquiring minds, and all that...

A Zoner sandbox brawl. Over GD vs Phish. 

I liked when Trey jammed with Phil more then with Phish. 

TAB was fun. Just my two cents. YMMV. Carry on. 

Burning folks at the steak. Giggle. 
 

Playing the vacuum cleaner

Fans doing their best to follow masking guidelines:

Jerry would never have allowed himself to be stuck on a gimmicky hydraulic lift at the end of a show

(^ when you picture the average Zoner, doesn't it kinda look like that guy?)

I would rather have dinner out with that phish mask wearer then, oh wait, dinners out not happening these days. 

Sure Phil was on a trampoline once (during a shoe no less). 

At least not during a gd shoe.  

Then there was that Barney incident. 

Not sure how it fits into this discussion but it is a cool moment, so there's that to consider. 

Listen ya fuck'in Baahhney!

heath·en

/ˈhēT͟Hən/

Learn to pronounce  noun

DEROGATORY

plural noun: heathens

a person who does not belong to a widely held religion (especially one who is not a Christian, Jew, deadhead or Muslim) as regarded by those who do.  Phish??? phishing..

~~~

Definition of heathen

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1: of or relating to people or nations that do not acknowledge the Godful Dead or  the Bible of the GRATEFUL DEAD: of or relating to heathens (see HEATHEN entry 2 sense 1), their religions, or their customs : PAGAN

good left turn tho lancey>   long live lance!

I’ll take that Ken Kesey Dark Star over any Halloween Phish album set.,.. and yes I was at both the dead show and kens Darien lake phish show

>>Live music from 1991-1995

1991 - sure, okay - but 1990 and 1989 were more fun Phish years here in Vermont than anything  after 1992.

Just my .02., of course, but seeing them at The Front or Nectars was a fucking hoot and we had no clue how BIG it was going to get so we just had fun with these kooky local guys with no strings or expectations attached. THAT was a fun time all around.

I don't necessarily disagree, 6, but I'm going to give 89-90 to the GD. Things changed in 1990, and Phish was the better band through 1995.

I saw them at the Orange Grove in Syracuse in 89. I’m not sure anything I saw after that(about 30 shows) was ever better. I saw a few of the well regarded shows( tweezer 95)  but gave up after being bored to tears at providence 98. Every year the crowd seemed bigger and the I don’t know what I took zombies everywhere u turned. 

It was a good goof off

Still never eclipsed a gd performance on their worst night, imo. 

>Every year the crowd seemed bigger and the I don’t know what I took zombies everywhere u turned.<

Yep, I bugged out at the end of 95 because of all the spun youngins, and the big arenas.. Made my decision during the Hershey show on 12.1. I gave away my ticket for Albany, and the Spectrum on 12.15 was my last Phish show until 2009.

>but gave up after being bored to tears at providence 98<

I'm not a big fan of the 97-2000 time period. 

>>I'm going to give 89-90 to the GD. Things changed in 1990, and Phish was the better band through 1995.
 

Okay - I'm not going to disagree with that straight up.

I got two different things from two different bands during those years. During those two years - no one knew Phish was going to get so big - and, at the time, who knew the Grateful Dead was having their final peak before descending?

.

phish's light show is like starbucks compared to this finely measured, carefully thought out recipe of pour over 

If the music starts to suck just watch the drawn out over done light show brah.

100% Chemex right there

>>If the music starts to suck just watch the drawn out over done light show brah.

Ha ha. When I saw Phish in Albany a few years ago, that's exactly what I did. The shitty music became the backdrop for the lights, which were often more interesting than the music.

I'll say that Phish were high energy (at least that night), and they had the place rocking. People were having a great time, and that's all that matters.

Awkward, onstage  nudity.....Phish

Good point

So, can I assume from the banter that on dead lot there were never any youngins walking around with the I don't know what I took face? Dude, the one dead show I went to I definitely saw an abundance of shady ass motherfuckers and junkies like I had never seen in my life. A year later I went to my first Phish show and did see a lot of that, but thought the scene was generally much cleaner than the Dead crowd.

Orange, my first Phish was Hershey 95. I was 19 and took 5 hits of Alice in Wonderland that my friend's friend Natalie scored from her friends. It was beautiful clean L, the show was a blast, but yeah, I probably looked like a deer in the headlights. I didn't mean to ruin Phish for you, I was just having phun. Can you still have phun? I hope so.

:)

^Javs, it was me, not you. I had been going to GD shows since 86, all big arenas and stadiums, i first saw phish in bars, then theaters, then sheds, then arenas. I wasn't interested in doing the big arena thing again. The spun youngins were part of the scene, as with the GD, but I wasn't interested in hanging with y'all at that point. I was more interested in spending time at jazz clubs in Manhattan and philly .

> Not if Naked Pole Humper Guy counts<

Not onstage, and not a member of the band.

Awkward, onstage nudity still goes to Phish, IMO

It was significantly more prevalent with the phishies imo javs and that was about the time the world seemed to be all about some girl Molly. If by cleaner, you mean more synthetic then yes I agree

>It was significantly more prevalent with the phishies imo<

IDK about that, but the phish crowd was significantly younger. 

Yes your right the older dead crew prob just did a better job of containing the melt. Other then once in the pit at a Springsteen show, the only time I’ve had someone puke near me was at a phish show in 95

Orange, did you just 'It's not you it's me', me? Hhahaha, love it. But that's great, though. Your Manhattan and Philly jazz scene sounds pretty fucking cool and as a 44 year old man, much more my speed these days as well. But thank you for taking the time to clear that up.

As for Molly, I started molly sinking into the scene slowly in 97, by 99 it was rampant and 00 onwards there were tons of molly zombies. MDMA is a weird drug. I love it. I especially love it in intimate setting with just one other person. It's helped me open up so many emotions and explore my sexuality and emotions and empathy so much. But on the other hand, molly is not psychologically challenging That's the whole point of it. It literally is not psychologically challenging. In clinical studies it has been shown to allow people to explore deep trauma without feeling the negative emotions attached to it.

L is psychologically challenging. Psychedelics in general ask you to grow and face yourself, and I'm always shocked by how many people manage to ignore this imperative but there it is. So people just started taking molly all the time. And molly is a powder, which looks kinda like coke, so why not do some lines. And fuck, it's a chemi, so why not pop some pills with it. And while we're at it, let's throw down some whiskey and booze to hide our social insecurity. And then the molly begins to eat your soul. The spirit of the molecule demands its fee and if you don't pay it, it starts draining you.

It's a lot more difficult psychologically to consume L on a regular basis. It's long term, the come-down is eternal, and depending on the dose and person, it makes it virtually impossible to ignore your shadows. The whole psychedelic music scene was built around L. Long build ups, meandering jams, insane peaks, long drawn out emotional moments. Molly just doesn't have the same feel to it, IMO. To me molly is either a more personal drug or for electronic music. But at a Phish show, I'd much rather a bottle of clean liquid, for sure.

Anyways, rant over.

Phish invented the yacht rock jam band genre. Kudos. Goes great to the sound of your nicest sailboat

Games....

Chess, Band vs Audience... Phish

Take a step back (so folks don't die)...GD

Advantage Phish 

New Year's Eve...

Attended Phish 12.31.92 and 12.31.93, They were both a great time, but the advantage here goes to the GD. 

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'd be willing to bet that Phish plays consistenly longer jams than the Dead did. The Dead would rarely venture beyond the 10, maybe 15 minute mark. Of course, there were exceptions. And the thing about them was, they could arguably accomplish more in those minutes in terms of psychedelic deep sea diving than Phish can (speaking strictly of a good night vs a good night). But Phish has consistently broken the 15 minute barrier on a regular basis in the last 5 years alone, and the 20 minute barrier fairly frequently as well.

Long jams award goes to Phish, in my imaginary statistics.

Still never eclipsed a gd performance on their worst night, imo.

boring

drugs are not everything kids.............

Jerry Garcia- advantage, Grateful Dead

Young ladies groovily dancing, dresses flowing, and backlit by the hall lights (you know what I'm talking about) - advantage, Grateful Dead

Songbook and delivery of it: GD by endless miles. 

.......by the way, taking 5 hits at any Phish show sounds like complete torture and waste of a solid psychedelic adventure

I was 19! And no, it was not a waste. Seeing John Fishman in a cape singing Suspicious Minds is something I will never forget. Not to mention the chocolate rap. Mmmmmmmm.....chocolate....

As for the Grateful Dead on their worst night better than Phish? Uuh, yeah, ok. You stick with that. In my opinion though, the Grateful Dead, when they were sucking, sucked hard. See 1992 - 1995 for evidence. If you honestly think the worse GD show is better than say the best Phish show, well, I'll have some of that sacred cow filet, thank you!

Ok then it’s these

1-trampolines 

2-vacuum cleaner

3-silly lyrics

I'm just going to go ahead and say it: I love Phish's lyrics. And like 80% of the songs people think are silly are really (in my mind) not silly at all. Sure, they have a William Burroughs word jumble thing going on, but there is depth there. It's just not for the people who like to wade in the surface waters...

I thought '92 had some stand-out GD performances and in light of the handful of Phish shows that I saw between 1994 & 2018 I have always been impressed with the skill of the musicians but felt sorry for them in that they could not produce better material. Plus, the GD audiences were overall much more mature and better behaved. 

Whatever - some like Phish...carry on. 

Sure I prefer the shallow surface waters of Hunter, Dylan, Joyce et al

>Young ladies groovily dancing...

As I wrote, I didn't attend a phish show from 95-09, my first show back was Camden 09. I was in the lot talking to a kid parked next to me, and I had to ask, "When did women start showing up at these things?"

*above should read 96-09.

Phish updates the audience regarding the score of playoff games...

This was important prior to smartphones. 

I know this is bound to ruffle some feathers,  but Hunter is not in the same league as Dylan, Young, Prine...IMO

 The dead have broadcast sporting news and results from the stage. I know Phil announced the results of an Ali bout 

Didn't know, Fish. Thanks.  

Gag?

Dave, Fishman is a serious musician. I guarantee you that there's not a more accomplished vacuumist than Mr. Fishman

Ok there's that trampoline thing. True that. 

As for The Dead rarely venturing beyond the 10, maybe 15 minute mark. False. 

Gate crashing, venue/community trashing, staff bashing...

Phish has had their moments, but the GD win that by a long mile.

As for the lights, both were/are mostly distracting and annoying to me, but with Phish the lights have always been an integrated part of their show, while the GD just kept adding more and more crap (see above photos) to fill the huge void that was left after they could no longer fill the space with their brilliance.

Advantage Phish.

Barbershop quartet vs We bid you goodnight 

Advantage phish

Staff bashing?  
Did Dead Heads bash the Dead Staff?

In the early 70's Dead Staff bashed tapers. 
They tossed a few folks off the stage. 
Venue staff murdered someone in Long Island. 
 

As for gate crashing and venue/community trashing. Not good. 
Rumor has it some folks at Dead shoes partook in some substance abuse. 
As for filet of sacred cow, that doesn't sound overly yummy.  I'll pass.

Things Phish Did Better Than The Grateful Dead:

nothing

Bumper stickers regarding band member behavior...

Bob spit on me vs Fishman hit on me.

An unpleasant push

Posters

I have no Phish artwork. GD for the win.

Who played the most fun venues?

Egypt looked pretty fun. So did Veneta OR.

On the other hand,

The Gorge is pretty fun. Italy on the beach was fun. So is Mexico.

Phish green crew cleaning up after every show for decades

GD cosmic recyclers short lived only a few years in the 80's

The GD had Egypt, which is sort of unarguably the epitome of cool venues. So that's impossible to top. Plus, today access to the pyramids and security norms in general around the world are much more stringent, so pyramids in the '70s? Fuck yeah. A million times over a resort beach in Playa del Carmen.

The GD had Woodstock and the Summer Jam at Watkins Glen. Even though they pretty much blew it and got literally electric for Woodstock, it's still Woodstock and they were there. And Watkins Glen may have been an infrastructure nightmare, I really don't know. But come on? The Band? Allman Brothers? Near impossible to top.

However, I give Phish a serious Honorable Mention medal for the festivals they put on. They consistently go out of their way to find kick-ass places where freaks can be freaks freely, and then fill it with art, art installations, good food, and oh yeah, usually 7 sets of music plus a mystery set of super freaky improv craziness. So I mean, while neither The Band nor The Allmans are there, really, nobody else has done anything else like this, all the while keeping the prices real. And their intent always being the fans' delight. Not bad. 

PHISH Tower Jam was pretty Epic...8 2 2003 was fun

Vacuum solo?

They are much better at:  1) being derivative of The Grateful Dead, 2) Finding a riff and playing it over and over again, 3) jamming aimlessly.

Long Live The Grateful Dead!

Kidding aside, light show.

Did the GD ever do an audience participation like the Big Ball Jam?

In 1992, Phish introduced a collaboration between audience and band called the "Big Ball Jam" in which each band member would throw a large beach ball into the audience and play a note each time his ball was hit. In so doing, the audience was helping to create an original composition.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phish

>>>>Did the GD ever do an audience participation, like the Big Ball Jam?

The Dead crew tossed an oversized beach ball thingy into the audience that had sensors in it so when the audience hit it the air a different sound would be transmitted through the p.a. depending on where the ball was hit.

It may have been during intermission though

Oakland 92?

>>>>Did the GD ever do an audience participation, like the Big Ball Jam?

They used to pass out acid.

^ftw. 

The time has come to look at the scorecard.

Things Phish does better than the Dead did.  

1 ~ trampoline
2 ~ vacuum cleaner

3 ~ MSG New Years Shoes

4 ~ overcoming drug abuse

5 ~ donuts  

5 ~ cleaning up after every shoe

R we having fun yet? 

Fair enough, Surf, but i was referring to the audience participating in the creation of the music. Blackrock's example is more in that vein. But point taken. 

Hazy memories of Bobby conducting the audience in a sing a long...

i.e. left side sing first, then the right side

maybe during Not Fade Away?

advantage phish??

just remembered the Capitol Theater ESP show......

Dave, if you doubt Fishman's virtuosity on the vacuum, check out N²O from 7.16.94. This is the last show of a fantastic summer tour. Available for free listen on the livephish app

>>> check out N²O from 7.16.94

Hell yeah.  That show smoked.  Jesus was in the house that night.

That was my favorite Phish show ever, which ironically was three days after my worst GD show (Highgate VT 7/13/94).